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USA Warns Cameron not to leave EU
Comments
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Devilishly cunning these beastly huns. But you are able to see through the fiendish tricks so perhaps not cunning enough.
I, and the majority of the population, judging by the opinion polls. Stealth operators always have to show their hands eventually. Brown got outed in the end didn't he.No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
Also sprach der berühmte Kapitän Mainwaring.Devilishly cunning these beastly huns. But you are able to see through the fiendish tricks so perhaps not cunning enough.You might as well ask the Wizard of Oz to give you a big number as pay a Credit Referencing Agency for a so-called 'credit-score'0 -
GeorgeHowell wrote: »Don't worry, I did detect the attempts at irony and to set a rather obvious little trap, but chose to ignore them.
The EU is a corrupt, ineffficent and self-serving bureaucracy whose purpose is to serve and legitimise federalist idealogues among European politicians whose motivation revolves largely around power seeking under German hegemony.
Previous attempts to reason with it, induce it to see reality, or get a reasonable deal from it for the UK have with very few exceptions failed dismally.
It if moves to formally turn itself into a federal state, then the UK wanting no part of that has to extricate itself from it by whatever means are necessary. The EU certainly will have little concern about the UK's interests -- it never has yet -- so if playing hard ball and wielding vetoes is the only way to achieve that, then so be it.
I don't think the EU will ultimately see it in its own best interests for the UK to be completely out of the picture, but if the very real threat of that is the only way to get it to admit so, then go for it. If it did result in us being out altogether then we would be a lot better off than we are now, and immeasurably better off then being sucked into the federal entity in any way shape or form.
No irony or traps there -- just the facts of life.
Well, if you feel comfortable in that position, it was not a very good trap. I feel less bad about it for the fact that you walked in with your eyes open.
As I see it, it is probably a point of principle to you for the UK to be outside the EU. So for you, it will be indisputably better to be out, simply for the fact of being out - regardless of whether the outcome is an economic armageddon (not that I am arguing that it will be). So I can see that you will not be deterred by the adverse consequences of any strategy which gets us out. It is an honest enough position, but one which has no merit to me.You might as well ask the Wizard of Oz to give you a big number as pay a Credit Referencing Agency for a so-called 'credit-score'0 -
Well, if you feel comfortable in that position, it was not a very good trap. I feel less bad about it for the fact that you walked in with your eyes open.
As I see it, it is probably a point of principle to you for the UK to be outside the EU. So for you, it will be indisputably better to be out, simply for the fact of being out - regardless of whether the outcome is an economic armageddon (not that I am arguing that it will be).
I wasn't a very good trap because it didn't do any trapping. I said that I thought it was possible for Cameron to achieve the best for the UK whilst remaining in the EU, and why. You don't agree, fair enough. But it doesn't mean that anyone has been trapped.
Not entirely on principle. If I thought that the UK quality of life would be substantially better inside the EU, or even inside the federal USE, then I would be in favour of it.
A lot of arguments for staying in are pretty negative really, along the lines that it's pretty crap inside the EU, but it would even worse out of it, so we're stuck with it and will just have to live with it, the alternative being unavoidable disaster. Don't agree with any of that -- except that it's crap inside the EU.No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
GeorgeHowell wrote: »I wasn't a very good trap because it didn't do any trapping. I said that I thought it was possible for Cameron to achieve the best for the UK whilst remaining in the EU, and why. You don't agree, fair enough. But it doesn't mean that anyone has been trapped.
Not entirely on principle. If I thought that the UK quality of life would be substantially better inside the EU, or even inside the federal USE, then I would be in favour of it.
A lot of arguments for staying in are pretty negative really, along the lines that it's pretty crap inside the EU, but it would even worse out of it, so we're stuck with it and will just have to live with it, the alternative being unavoidable disaster. Don't agree with any of that -- except that it's crap inside the EU.
You find life crap? You have problems with quality of life? Sorry, but I dont think inside or outside the EU is going to make much difference to that.0 -
HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »Because there are millions of UK citizens living or working in Europe, and vice versa.
Has it ever occurred to you that many of us do not want to lose our existing rights to live and work freely in the EU?
That is your choice, and no one can deny you your choice as a referendum.
Simply insulting all those who don't follow your thoughts serves you an injustice.0 -
You find life crap? You have problems with quality of life? Sorry, but I dont think inside or outside the EU is going to make much difference to that.
I hope you fell better after making a smart-a**e remark.
I am not talking about personal quality of life of course, but national, which is disenhanced by the huge net contribution, the pettifogging bureaucracy which adds costs to business, the interference in matters which have nothing to do with free trade (eg light bulbs), the associated baggage that comes with the EU like the ECHR and the human rights farce. As a nation we would be better off without all that, and I don't accept that the trading advantages baby has to go out with all that mucky bathwater.
Clearly many left-leaning people want to stay in the EU because they see that as the best route to ensure that the UK stays under left leaning government in perpetuity.No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
Graham_Devon wrote: »That is your choice, and no one can deny you your choice as a referendum..
There will not be a referendum, so all this talk of one is pointless.“The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived, and dishonest – but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.
Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.”
-- President John F. Kennedy”0 -
HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »There will not be a referendum, so all this talk of one is pointless.
Comments based on claims of clairvoyance do not really add much to this discussion.No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
GeorgeHowell wrote: »the huge net contribution,
Which is more than outweighed by increase in GDP we have as a result of EU membership.the pettifogging bureaucracy which adds costs to business,
If we are to stay in a free trade pact, businesses will need to continue complying with EU regulations.the interference in matters which have nothing to do with free trade (eg light bulbs),
You think Labour wouldn't have banned incandescent bulbs regardless of whether we were in the EU?:rotfl:the associated baggage that comes with the EU like the ECHR and the human rights farce.
What a silly and uninformed statement.
The EHCR has nothing to do with EU membership, and leaving the EU would not exempt Britain from the EHCR.
The European Court of Human Rights is a Council of Europe organisation, not an EU organisation.
"The Council of Europe is an international organization promoting co-operation between all countries of Europe in the areas of legal standards, human rights, democratic development, the rule of law and cultural co-operation. It was founded in 1949, has 47 member states with some 800 million citizens, and is an entirely separate body from the European Union (EU), which has only 27 member states."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe
Are you now proposing we should leave the Council of Europe as well as the EU, or instead of the EU?
And could you point me to any pledge from the Tories, Labour or the Lib Dems offering a referendum on COE membership? As without that, we stay in the ECHR regardless of EU membership.
I would have thought a seasoned Eurosceptic such as yourself would know that....As a nation we would be better off without all that, and I don't accept that the trading advantages baby has to go out with all that mucky bathwater.
Why?Clearly many left-leaning people want to stay in the EU because they see that as the best route to ensure that the UK stays under left leaning government in perpetuity.
I'm a Tory voter. Can't stand Labour.
Doesn't change the fact that we're miles better off in Europe than outside it.“The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived, and dishonest – but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.
Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.”
-- President John F. Kennedy”0
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