Isolation from Europe wouldn't be splendid for the UK?

Wheezy_2

ILW wrote: »

Why is it that anyone who questions whether uncontrolled immigration is a good thing, is labelled racist?

I don't see any labelling. Just Hamish calling out blatant racist posts like:

The_White_Horse wrote: »

... a million romanian and bulgarian beggars and thieves ... these non-working leeches...

PaulF81 wrote: »

I have a big problem with my nation being overrun by uneducated, penniless thieves.

ILW wrote: »

If GDP is based on cash in hand car cleaning and iffy Big Issue sales, we will have an economic boom.

And rightly so.

The_White_Horse

ValHaller wrote: »

So freedom is a privilege and not a right? So who gets to grant the privilege? I don't buy your twisted view.

so should murderers and rapists not be put in prison? should they not lose their privilige to freedom? you may be free, unless you break the law.

GeorgeHowell

ValHaller wrote: »

So freedom is a privilege and not a right? So who gets to grant the privilege? I don't buy your twisted view.

Freedom is a right. But with that right comes the responsibility to respect other people's freedom, by not committing serious crimes against them. If it comes to a toss up between the freedom of the innocent and the freedom of the guilty, and both cannot reasonably be satisfied, then the freedom of the innocent take precedence. Everybody in a free society starts with a right to freedom, but it's possible to voluntarily forego it by not abiding by the implied contract of respecting other people's rights and freedoms that comes with the privilege of living in a free society. Anyone who does not want to accept that responsibility should go and live in somewhere like Somalia.

MacMickster

The_White_Horse wrote: »

.

i am all for suspected terrorists to be treated like kings, but once they are convicted, all their rights should go down the toilet.

The problem with the Abu Qatada case is that he hasn't been convicted of (nor even tried for) any offence in the UK.

ILW

MacMickster wrote: »

Yes they continue to trade with the EU, but we impose tariffs on many of their goods and services when imported into the EU. This is to recognise the advantage that their manufacturers have in not having to comply with all of the pink and fluffy EU rules on workers rights etc. For this reason, many set up manufacturing bases within the EU to get around these tariffs, providing employment under EU terms and conditions at the same time.

If we leave the EU, not only would we be subject to tariffs on our own exports, companies such as Nissan, Toyota etc would lose the incentive to have manufacturing take place in the UK, so would undoubtedly shift their operations to somewhere within the EU.

https://www.gov.uk/importing-goods-from-outside-the-eu

So if the EU charge such tarrifs on such things as Korean and Japanese cars and Chinese electronics, how are they so competitive?

ValHaller

GeorgeHowell wrote: »

Freedom is a right. But with that right comes the responsibility to respect other people's freedom, by not committing serious crimes against them. If it comes to a toss up between the freedom of the innocent and the freedom of the guilty, and both cannot reasonably be satisfied, then the freedom of the innocent take precedence. Everybody in a free society starts with a right to freedom, but it's possible to voluntarily forego it by not abiding by the implied contract of respecting other people's rights and freedoms that comes with the privilege of living in a free society. Anyone who does not want to accept that responsibility should go and live in somewhere like Somalia.

I would go with that, since you start from the premise that freedom is a right. I will not ever accept that it is a privilege, because the difference between rights and privileges is that you start with rights, whereas privilege are granted. I am not up for anyone being in the position where freedom is in their gift.

GeorgeHowell

ILW wrote: »

So if the EU charge such tarrifs on such things as Korean and Japanese cars and Chinese electronics, how are they so competitive?

It's because of course they don't have so many buckets of sand around their necks adding to overheads :- EU regulations, heath'n'safety, workers' rights, union restrictive practices and demarcations, high taxes due to state welfare etc etc. The EU believes that even within a free trade philosophy it's fair game to penalise that advantage with a bit of tariff, and after all they have to penalise anyone not in the Eu or what incentive would there be to be in the EU ? Some believe that if we came out they would similarly sting us, though there would be no economic justification for doing so. Some would no doubt push for this just to punish us but given the volume fo trade and the lobbying from business on both sides they probably would not get away with it. By the time they realised that we were dismantling some of their b******t regulations and freeing up our businesses, and put a bit if a tariff on us, if we played our cards right we would have built up better trade links with the rest of the world to compensate. It could be done; it must be done.

chris_m

The_White_Horse wrote: »

to have rights, you must also have responsibilities and duties. if you don't fulfil those duties, then you must also lose your rights.

for example, freedom. you have various duties and responsibilities - if you don't fulfil them, you lose your privilege to freedom.

Spot on, apart from the one highlighted word. As others have also pointed out, freedom is a right not a priviledge.

ValHaller

GeorgeHowell wrote: »

It's because of course they don't have so many buckets of sand around their necks adding to overheads :- EU regulations, heath'n'safety, workers' rights, union restrictive practices and demarcations, high taxes due to state welfare etc etc. The EU believes that even within a free trade philosophy it's fair game to penalise that advantage with a bit of tariff, and after all they have to penalise anyone not in the Eu or what incentive would there be to be in the EU ? Some believe that if we came out they would similarly sting us, though there would be no economic justification for doing so. Some would no doubt push for this just to punish us but given the volume fo trade and the lobbying from business on both sides they probably would not get away with it. By the time they realised that we were dismantling some of their b******t regulations and freeing up our businesses, and put a bit if a tariff on us, if we played our cards right we would have built up better trade links with the rest of the world to compensate. It could be done; it must be done.

In the last year for which figures are available 173 people died in workplace accidents in the UK (2011 to 2012). So how many more lives do you think it is acceptable to squander in the cause of freeing up business for existence outside the EU? Are you delighted that 173 people no longer have human rights?

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

ILW wrote: »

So if the EU charge such tarrifs on such things as Korean and Japanese cars and Chinese electronics, how are they so competitive?

Japanese car makers build most cars sold in the EU within EU factories, hence avoiding the tariffs. Some of the high end luxury models are built elsewhere, but for those cars it's less important.

As you should be aware, most cars manufactured within the UK are exported to Europe. Those factories would almost certainly close if we left the EU.

Chinese electronics are competitive, despite the tariffs, because they pay their workers a dollar a day. We cannot hope to compete against low wage economies in mass produced goods, and leaving the EU will not change that. It will however mean that our high wage economy has to pay tariffs on exports of goods to our biggest trading partner, making them less competitive.

The most optimistic scenario I have seen from a relatively neutral source is that leaving the EU would result in a permanent reduction in GDP of around 2 to 3%, and a big increase in unemployment as manufacturers leave. The more pessimistic scenarios are far worse.