Isolation from Europe wouldn't be splendid for the UK?

Moby

geek1981 wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/28/isolation-europe-not-splendid-uk-eu

I personally think leaving the EU, regain control of our borders and start to govern our own country will be a good start. I'm sure majority of UK will back that? What do you think?

A very good article that and.....if people actually read it and considered its content instead of using it as an excuse to express their own xenophobia and bigotry we'd actually move he argument on! As ever when talking about our relationship with Europe the real debate is subsumed by excessive emotion, fear and personal prejudice. IMO this is dangerous because it is us who will lose out. History shows us time and time again that we have to be in there fighting our corner and participating constructively otherwise we are sidelined by France and Germany. With regard to the view that this doesn't matter because we will build up other trading relationships...... As the article says:-

'

With a "continental blockade" across the Channel, commercial agreements between London and Brussels won't be easy to negotiate – which way will the UK look?
Towards the US? But Barack Obama sees the Europeans, the British included, the way we Europeans see the Swiss: slightly weary rich friends who don't create any problems for you but don't bring you any solutions either. What's the point of a UK back in splendid isolation when its preoccupations are Chinese, Asian and Pakistani? And what weight will an isolated country of 65 million people carry in the eyes of the Chinese, or even the Indians?'

Its perfectly clear to anyone with intelligence that access to resources and future trade will in future be even more dependent on the quality of relationships we have and our ability to influence others. Splendid isolation and gunboat diplomacy will no longer work. We are still viewed with suspicion by many resurgent nations...India, China, Brasil etc as former imperialists still living in the past. The politics of UKIP/Farage are a complete sham pandering to prejudice and xenophobic fear and which will only hurt our future if followed.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Moby wrote: »

The politics of UKIP/Farage are a complete sham pandering to prejudice and xenophobic fear and which will only hurt our future if followed.

Absolutely spot on.:T

PaulF81

Want to tell me what snuggling up to Romania will give us in the long term other than a huge benefits bill and a million more big issue sellers?

Graham_Devon

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Now that is interesting Graham....

It is true that I have two houses.

It is also true that increased immigration is good for me.

However increased immigration would be good for me if I had one house.

And increased immigration would be good for me if I did not own a house at all.

Immigration benefits society as a whole. Not just property owners.

So whilst your correct observation of the number of houses I own at least proves you've been paying attention for the last few years, it neither enhances the logic of your argument nor refutes any of the points I raise.

Perhaps you'd like to try again.....;)

Oh come off it.

How many times have you decided to simply leave an immigration thread as soon as you are told shovelling more immigrants into the country only requires MORE people yet again to service the need for those immigrants pensions and benefits.

You LOVE pyramid schemes. It's pretty much the base of all your arguments.

Sampong

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

You'd have to be a complete bigoted idiot to think that all Romanians and Bulgarians are "beggars and thieves".

So that's almost certainly your problem.

:beer:

nice deflection there Hamish, you haven't actually answered the question - couldn't you find a graph?

cotleigh

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

There appears to be because the Daily Fail and the UKIP muppets stoke baseless fears in the general population about the UK being over-run with immigrants.

Whereas reality is completely different.

The UK is nowhere near the top of the list in Europe in terms of foreign citizens as a percentage of the total population.

But it is still true that for many years there have been these camps filled with people willing to risk their very lives by hiding in and under lorries, or jumping the Chunnel trains, just to reach the UK.

Why do so many travel through equally well-to-do EU member states without stopping, determined to reach Britain, and willing to put up with longer and harsher journeys, living like animals in the woods near Calais for extended periods, just so they can get into Britain?

Why don't they stop and find (possibly illegal) work in France, or elsewhere?

Just asking......

ValHaller

GeorgeHowell wrote: »

But there's going to be two clubs : The United States of Europe, and the EU - comprising the USE plus the countries that are not in it. What the UK has to push for -- and as the biggest player should take the lead on -- is that each club has it's own set of rules appropriate to its purpose.

Cloud cuckoo land.

Yes, I can see that if the UK initiates negotiations on this model, something could be very easily negotiated along these lines. But it would be a fig leaf which would actually be a way to slide us out through the door without it slamming.

Think of the break up of the former USSR. It was replaced by the Commonwealth of Independent States. Remember that? Is it at all a meaningful entity today?

What would actually happen could probably be along the lines that the others take the opportunity of a UK renegotiation to 'consolidate' existing foundational treaties, leaving the UK on the legacy treaties, which the others will slowly drop out of. Leaving the UK as the sole member of the EU.

I am of the opinion we will have eased ourselves out of the EU with the willing cooperation of the rest (even if it is on the lines I suggest above) by 2020. people will rejoice that 'we will no longer be told what to do by Brussels'. In strict fact they will probably be correct - but in reality we will have to choose of our own free will to comply with a substantial amount of EU legislation without ever having a say on the content.

The idea that we could refocus on the Commonwealth is fanciful. Free movement of people and labour within the Commonwealth anyone?

cotleigh

Moby wrote: »

A very good article that and.....if people actually read it and considered its content instead of using it as an excuse to express their own xenophobia and bigotry we'd actually move he argument on! As ever when talking about our relationship with Europe the real debate is subsumed by excessive emotion, fear and personal prejudice. IMO this is dangerous because it is us who will lose out. History shows us time and time again that we have to be in there fighting our corner and participating constructively otherwise we are sidelined by France and Germany. With regard to the view that this doesn't matter because we will build up other trading relationships...... As the article says:-

'

Its perfectly clear to anyone with intelligence that access to resources and future trade will in future be even more dependent on the quality of relationships we have and our ability to influence others. Splendid isolation and gunboat diplomacy will no longer work. We are still viewed with suspicion by many resurgent nations...India, China, Brasil etc as former imperialists still living in the past. The politics of UKIP/Farage are a complete sham pandering to prejudice and xenophobic fear and which will only hurt our future if followed.

We can still TRADE freely with anyone and everyone.

Trading with another country (or group of countries) does not mean that we somehow must accept an unlimited number of immigrants from them etc.

Why do people portray UKIP etc as though they wish to cut the UK off from international trade?

In most cases, it seems that UKIP feel betrayed by the way that the "EEC" (a free-trade area with common standards for products sold) was hijacked and turned into an incipient "USE" (United States of Europe").

We can happily buy and sell goods from and to other nations, including even Romania and Bulgaria, without having also to accept their refugees and so on.

Sampong

cotleigh wrote: »

We can still TRADE freely with anyone and everyone.

Trading with another country (or group of countries) does not mean that we somehow must accept an unlimited number of immigrants from them etc.

Why do people portray UKIP etc as though they wish to cut the UK off from international trade?

In most cases, it seems that UKIP feel betrayed by the way that the "EEC" (a free-trade area with common standards for products sold) was hijacked and turned into an incipient "USE" (United States of Europe").

We can happily buy and sell goods from and to other nations, including even Romania and Bulgaria, without having also to accept their refugees and so on.

Absolutely spot on:T

The_White_Horse

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

You'd have to be a complete bigoted idiot to think that all Romanians and Bulgarians are "beggars and thieves".

So that's almost certainly your problem.

:beer:

so, no answer then. as I expected. and also, I didn't say all, i said a million. there will be a lot more than a million Romanians and Bulgarians coming over here.

You sound like Gordon Brown. He was wrong also.

clearly, 99% of people have no problem with people who come here to work and contribute. people have issues with people who come here to beg, steal, and claim benefits.