Isolation from Europe wouldn't be splendid for the UK?

geek1981

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/28/isolation-europe-not-splendid-uk-eu

I personally think leaving the EU, regain control of our borders and start to govern our own country will be a good start. I'm sure majority of UK will back that? What do you think?

Generali

I agree that it's likely that many Britons would support withdrawal from the UK.

The problem is that the UK (with or without Scotland) is a trading nation and the chances of England getting a sweetheart deal on leaving the EU are even lower than those of Scotland getting a similar break on leaving the UK.

lena90

I thinks England getting a sweetheart deal on leaving the EU .
:rotfl:

Miss_Havisham

Generali wrote: »

I agree that it's likely that many Britons would support withdrawal from the UK.

The problem is that the UK (with or without Scotland) is a trading nation and the chances of England getting a sweetheart deal on leaving the EU are even lower than those of Scotland getting a similar break on leaving the UK.

This is what worries me about having a referendum - the vast majority, me included, do not really understand the benefits of membership and would vote from an emotional viewpoint (i.e knee jerk reaction) which is influenced to a very great extent by the media.

Germany and France would certainly veto any "golden handshake", they would just want to get rid of the City of London in the hope/expectation that Frankfurt or Paris (as if !) would take over as the foremost financial centre in Europe if not the world.

Miss H

PaulF81

I don't think Germany, our major export nation, would have an issue with it. It's the turds in Brussels who enjoy their free lunch ticket at our expense that are the problem.

We need to ensure we as a nation enjoy primacy over our own legislation and aren't dictated to by The EU, which is different in mind to Europe.

I hope they have three options on any referendum, effectively one should be to enact the Lisbon treaty fully. The second should be complete exit, the third, a renegotiated deal based purely on trade agreements, flexible employment and taxation, but absolutely not on whether prisoners get the vote and who we get to deport (or kill in their beds if we so choose).

michaels

Pulling out would cost a lot the EU supporters correctly argue.

What they do not say is that staying in means following a path to 'ever closer union' - fiscal and legal harmonisation and all that implies for 'sovereignty'.

So may be it is a straight choice, an ongoing reduction in GDP and international influence or acceptance of being a region within a European state.

Perhaps we need a poll on this site to see where people stand?

GeorgeHowell

The UK is a major paymaster and if we came out it would leave a huge hole in their finances. We will probably get opt outs from some of the non-economic stuff -- social policies, criminal justice, (hopefully) human rights etc -- since they will realise that if we're not going to join the USE there is no need to hold us to that. As long as we agree to keep paying up I suspect that a compromise can be reached. People like Rumpy Pumpy will keep posturing, but ultimately the Merkels and Hollandes will ensure that some realpolitik comes into play. The real issue is whether our government will show enough resolve to get a good deal.

MacMickster

GeorgeHowell wrote: »

The UK is a major paymaster and if we came out it would leave a huge hole in their finances. We will probably get opt outs from some of the non-economic stuff -- social policies, criminal justice, (hopefully) human rights etc -- since they will realise that if we're not going to join the USE there is no need to hold us to that. As long as we agree to keep paying up I suspect that a compromise can be reached. People like Rumpy Pumpy will keep posturing, but ultimately the Merkels and Hollandes will ensure that some realpolitik comes into play. The real issue is whether our government will show enough resolve to get a good deal.

I don't see this at all. It is cloud cuckoo land thinking to expect to leave a club and then still enjoy all the best bits of membership without the attached responsibilities. They would replace their lost contribution by placing tariffs on imports from the UK, and we would have to abide by their rules without having any say in setting them. This would then make the UK far less attractive as a base for companies such as Nissan and Toyota, who would doubtless pack up their UK operations. The City would be similarly compromised.

I am certainly no fan of the EU which I consider to be corrupt and undemocratic, but equally I feel that we are witnessing a massive transfer of wealth from west to east and outside of the EU we are likely to find ourselves an irrelevant bit player in the global economy.

Given a referendum I am still unsure how I would vote. I see this in a similar way to michaels. It is a case of determining which is the lesser of two evils.

GeorgeHowell

MacMickster wrote: »

I don't see this at all. It is cloud cuckoo land thinking to expect to leave a club and then still enjoy all the best bits of membership without the attached responsibilities. They would replace their lost contribution by placing tariffs on imports from the UK, and we would have to abide by their rules without having any say in setting them. This would then make the UK far less attractive as a base for companies such as Nissan and Toyota, who would doubtless pack up their UK operations. The City would be similarly compromised.

I am certainly no fan of the EU which I consider to be corrupt and undemocratic, but equally I feel that we are witnessing a massive transfer of wealth from west to east and outside of the EU we are likely to find ourselves an irrelevant bit player in the global economy.

Given a referendum I am still unsure how I would vote. I see this in a similar way to michaels. It is a case of determining which is the lesser of two evils.

But there's going to be two clubs : The United States of Europe, and the EU - comprising the USE plus the countries that are not in it. What the UK has to push for -- and as the biggest player should take the lead on -- is that each club has it's own set of rules appropriate to its purpose.

The outer group need be no more than a trading and friendship pact, and the non-economic stuff need be no part of that. There are all sorts of reasons why the EU hiearchy and others will fight that notion. But that's no reason to back off. Such a compromise should become the prerequisite for approving the treaty that effectively creates the USE. Anything less and the UK government will be in clear dereliction of its duty to look after the best interests of the UK.

We are still too big to be a bit player anywhere. Freed from the EU yoke we can exploit and develop all sorts of relationships with the Commonwealth and developing world. We are uniquely well placed to do so. Necessity is the mother of invention. It could be the making of the modern UK. As things stand we will just be increasingly subsumed to German, French, and other European interests, most of whom don't like us much anyway.

mystic_trev

Generali wrote: »

I agree that it's likely that many Britons would support withdrawal from the UK.

The problem is that the UK (with or without Scotland) is a trading nation and the chances of England getting a sweetheart deal on leaving the EU are even lower than those of Scotland getting a similar break on leaving the UK.

Maybe not according to our old friend Jacques Delors!

If the British cannot support the trend towards more integration in Europe, we can nevertheless remain friends, but on a different basis. I could imagine a form such as a European economic area or a free-trade agreement

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9769458/Jacques-Delors-Britain-could-leave-the-European-Union.html

Graham_Devon

I think a good place to start is a full understanding of what we actually get from the EU that benefits us.

I haven't the foggiest. All I do know is that a lot of our "problems" seem to stem from EU policies. Maybe it's just the way it's reported, but I'm not sure what's really in it for us, as it were.

We'd still trade, surely? We did for centuries beforehand.

All I seem to get is an overuling sense of it costs us more and more for fewer and fewer benefits, while providing an open door policy for immigrants we can't cope with. I'm not sure if this is a UK issue per-se. All I do know is people are currently in France, in tents, waiting to get the to UK. The french won't entertain them, so I'm not sure why we will. Maybe our generous welfare state is the real issue and not the EU?