Not 'doing' Santa

amus

As an atheist myself I wondered whether or not I should encourage my child to believe in Santa.

Then I thought of my experiences as a child, and for the two years I was aged 4-5 it was a magical time for me. So decided not to deprive my children of this.

At aged 6 I had pretty much already figured out that he wasnt real, so I assume my sons will do the same.

If anything I think the santa story encourages logical thought and reason, it certainly did in my case because it made me ask questions e.g. why do I never see him? Why can I never stay up and wait for him? Why can he bring me some of the presents I really want but never, ever a pony? How does he fit down the chimney? If he is magical enough to fit down non existent chimneys and deliver presents to millions of kids around the world (except the poor ones) why isnt he magical enough to be the real Santa when you visit him in department stores, why does he need lots of 'helpers' to pretend to be him?

I think its actually good to 'lie' to kids about things like this, it helps them learn that not everything they are told is true, and therefore things that dont make sense should be questioned.

jellyhead

madison-nyc wrote: »

The chances of her believing in santa if you don't tell her he's 'real' is slim to none though isn't it?? so you are denying her the option to believe. It's not one of those things you can say she can decide when she's older as , by the time , she's 6/7/8 it's all over anyway.

The fact that you don't have good memories of xmas seem to be a major factor here as if you'd have good memories of waiting for santa , putting the reindeer food out etc. , you wouldn't be going down this route, i'm sure.

Yes , there are many things about xmas that are 'magical' but the majority of them are santa related , you can't deny that.

Surely not? Won't she come home one day aged 4 having been told about Father Christmas like my son did and believe from then onwards?

I have to say that the majority of christmas magic isn't Santa-related in my house (and we do have Santa, and aren't atheist or religious). Santa might be the only thing that's actually 'magic' but plenty of other things are magical - even the glitter of frost on the trees.

Children who are old enough to have worked out the truth still enjoy christmas magic. There's so much that's beautiful at this time of year.

seven-day-weekend

I actually don't understand why people are saying 'I am an atheist therefore I am not telling my children about Santa'. What has religion (or lack of it ) to do with Santa?

I am a practising Christian and I did not particularly want to tell my son about Santa either, but it was nothing to do with religion, I did not want to tell lies that I later had to tell him were lies.

mumps

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

I actually don't understand why people are saying 'I am an atheist therefore I am not telling my children about Santa'. What has religion (or lack of it ) to do with Santa?

I am a practising Christian and I did not particularly want to tell my son about Santa either, but it was nothing to do with religion, I did not want to tell lies that I later had to tell him were lies.

Some people, like me, link Santa to St Nicholas. I always told me children Santa Claus was just another way of saying St Nicholas and he started the tradition of giving to children. I think alot of people don't make that connection but presumably it is why some people see a religious link.

notanewuser

Our atheist, so our message to DD about religion (any religion) will begin "some people believe that............"

Likewise, our message to DD about Santa will begin "some people believe that............"

That's the only link for us.

caitlyn22

skintchick wrote: »

I wouldn't personally have said that to the dementia sufferer. I can only say again that I do not lie under any circumstances, that I find another thing to say instead that is not a lie, and that I believe this to be the preferable way to behave.

I too am intrigued by the conversation around lying, particularly around people with dementia as my own mother has early-onset and has lived in a very different world to me for some years now - often one of fantasy and at times, horror. All of the leading dementia care facilities in the world have been built on the research that suggests challenging confabulation, or addressing the truth, are highly damaging strategies for dementia sufferers.

I am often asked direct questions and have to lie. I could never imagine telling my mum the truth on some occasions, it would be devastating for her. Furthermore, I often lie to make her feel better. For example, the NSPCC adverts used to upset her terribly and she would sob for hours about 'the children'. I would tell her that the children were all OK, that there weren't any suffering children any more. Similarly, if she saw the news about a missing child, I would have to reassure her the child had been found alive and well. Her suffering could go on for weeks otherwise, she'd be inconsolable. Out of interest, what would you do skintchick?

I respect your position on this and think it's a very noble stance to take but surely in some instances (such as the case with a dementia sufferer) you'd be putting your need to be honest ahead of the needs of someone else?

skintchick

caitlyn22 wrote: »

I too am intrigued by the conversation around lying, particularly around people with dementia as my own mother has early-onset and has lived in a very different world to me for some years now - often one of fantasy and at times, horror. All of the leading dementia care facilities in the world have been built on the research that suggests challenging confabulation, or addressing the truth, are highly damaging strategies for dementia sufferers.

I am often asked direct questions and have to lie. I could never imagine telling my mum the truth on some occasions, it would be devastating for her. Furthermore, I often lie to make her feel better. For example, the NSPCC adverts used to upset her terribly and she would sob for hours about 'the children'. I would tell her that the children were all OK, that there weren't any suffering children any more. Similarly, if she saw the news about a missing child, I would have to reassure her the child had been found alive and well. Her suffering could go on for weeks otherwise, she'd be inconsolable. Out of interest, what would you do skintchick?

I respect your position on this and think it's a very noble stance to take but surely in some instances (such as the case with a dementia sufferer) you'd be putting your need to be honest ahead of the needs of someone else?

I haven't (yet) been in that situation so I cannot say for certain. It sounds a very difficult position to be in and I'd have to take the advice of the doctors. I definitely would not be putting myself first, that's not the kind of person I am at all. I'd hope there might be a way through that would not involve lying but if that was what was advised as the only way to deal with it I'd have to give it serious consideration.

caitlyn22

skintchick wrote: »

I haven't (yet) been in that situation so I cannot say for certain. It sounds a very difficult position to be in and I'd have to take the advice of the doctors. I definitely would not be putting myself first, that's not the kind of person I am at all. I'd hope there might be a way through that would not involve lying but if that was what was advised as the only way to deal with it I'd have to give it serious consideration.

It is tough and I feel I have had to compromise myself, and my mum, in lots of ways. The other day she was beaming because she was wearing a new pink top and had her nails painted purple - both colours the woman I used to know hated - but I smiled along with her as it seemed to be making her happy! She also regularly asks for and enjoys lamb now, which she used to avoid on ethical grounds. On the other hand, I disagreed to her being used in photographs for the care home, even though it upset her being left out on the day because I know she previously hated having her picture taken and would have hated to be used in promotional materials that way.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you would put yourself first, I just genuinely wondered what you thought. I'm always up for hearing other views on lying and dishonesty as it can be quite overwhelming being wholly responsible for another person being, beyond *just* their personal and health care. I can frustrate all the carers and doctors by weighing up every tiny decision for weeks! I did use to object to lying to her and wanted to challenge her own confabulation but soon learned my mum being secure and content, even at the expense of the truth, was what mattered.

Anyway, back to Santa!

My OH and I agreed last night that we would never pretend that a shop or grotto Santa was real with our own children, but we are going to encourage them to believe while they are young at least. Our reasons for that are quite complicated but do mirror our feelings about religion - we're atheist but we do value faith. We marvel that a figure (such as Santa, could equally be any other historical or mythical figure of goodness and generosity) does 'exist' - to the extent that people are driven to encourage belief in others, do good themselves and share common celebrations. So while they're not attributes I'd reserve solely for Christmas, I want my children to appreciate that Santa represents something magical and that believing in itself is the kind of faith I can get on board with - faith in ourselves and each other!

PurpleJay

This has been a really interesting thread which I have been dipping in and out of all day.

I have a 6 yo and he does believe in santa. Tbh I have loved making Christmas magical for him and creating our family tradition of which Santa is just part of it. The build up has been great the past couple of years and nothing beats that feeling of "he's been!!!" on christmas morning. I remember feeling that myself and love watching my son feel the same.

Generally I don't tell lies to my son but we do have make believe which I feel is different. I understand that some say lies are lies but I am not convinced it is so cut and dried. We told him when he was small that Santa Claus brings presents but have never used it as a threat to make him behave. This is the first time we have mentioned the naughty list this year but only after he brought it up (from seeing it in a film). This is the first year we have sent a letter to Santa and I can't wait to see his face when he gets a reply. We started the letter with "Mum says I have been a good boy this year...".

He has an enquiring mind and always asks questions and I imagine will work out he isn't real in the next year or two. We have made additions to the story in response to his questions for example saying reindeer can fly because of magic dust and saying Santa gets in using a magic key which only works on Christmas Eve - I didn't want him thinking he could wander in whenever he liked! My parents just used to say they would leave the door unlocked on Christmas Eve.

He is very much looking forward to the tooth fairy leaving him a pound and has his first wobbly tooth. I have made little mention of the tooth fairy but when he has heard about her from books and tv I have happily played along.

My husband and I are not religious although I still describe myself and my son as c of e on forms. Our son goes to a c of e primary which has strong links with church and does a fair amount of praying and talking about god and Jesus. We chose it because it is a good school and local. We are very happy with it and don't think the religious teachings hurt. Many bible stories have a moral and are about helping others and being grateful for what we have. Before he started school we told him the nativity and Easter stories and he has a book of bible stories which we read like any of his other story books. He has asked if god is real and I have answered truthfully that many people believe that he is but that I am not sure.

On the subject of lying to people with dementia, I think do whatever is needed to keep them calm. I can think of nothing worse than keep telling someone their mother or husband is dead only for then to forget over and over and relive the pain. My mum has severe dementia and we have some very bizarre conversations. She lives in a care home now but usually believes she is either in hospital, in her own home or in a previous home like where she grew up. Sometimes she thinks she is in a 'lodging house'. Now I know a bit more about dementia, I always play along with her when I can. I would say anything to keep her calm. Before she was diagnosed, I used to try to explain things and correct her but this just made her more angry or confused, upset or agitated. It was hard, no impossible to get her to accept she needed to be in hospital and ultimately wasn't safe to be on her own. She actually had 1:1 care in hospital after 2 falls and fell a few times at home before going in but she couldn't remember.

Now she talks about dead people it would be cruel to keep telling her they are dead - on my last visit she told me her mum has made her a cup of tea that morning to which I said, 'oh did she, that's nice.' She said she has seen one of her aunts, (did you?). She asked where my dad was and pushed me for an answer. I said I wasn't sure ( you never know if we are talking before or after he retired) and she asked if he was at work. I said 'yes, I expect so.' She sometimes thinks my son is me as a child but mostly she recognises us both fine. Some days recently she gets upset for example if she thinks she needs to get up and do things before my dad gets back. I try distraction first but will then say don't worry, i will do it, or nobody is coming yet. Yesterday there was no distracting her and she screamed in frustration when she couldn't get up and I wouldn't help her. She has lost her mobility but forgets she can't walk Dementia is your worst nightmare. Tbh I am grateful for any conversation where she is calm and gets something out of it. I don't care if we talk rubbish

I take my son to see her every week or two. He has grown up with her being poorly and she lived with us for two years. As her dementia has progressed I have explained that sometimes she gets a bit shouty and upset because she is confused. We talk about her memories being all jumbled up so the wrong things sometimes come to the front. I know some wouldn't take him to a hospital or care home and I was careful to keep visits short when she was really angry but he loves his grandma and this is part of life and our reality right now.

I think we could all use a bit of magic and don't think it does any harm but I do respect that others may approach things differently. I have been in the minority as a parent by following attachment parenting ideas rather than mainstream. We co slept, don't go much for routines, breastfed until 3, baby led weaning, baby wearing etc. On the other hand I went back to work part time. I have always though I parent instinctively and am flexible to change to suit the circumstances. I always said I wouldn't use reward charts but at 4 and 5 they worked to get my son going to bed at a reasonable time. It is great to have an idea how you want to do things but 5 years on, things are not always going to be how you imagined.

Phew sorry for the essay!

mumps

caitlyn22 wrote: »

I too am intrigued by the conversation around lying, particularly around people with dementia as my own mother has early-onset and has lived in a very different world to me for some years now - often one of fantasy and at times, horror. All of the leading dementia care facilities in the world have been built on the research that suggests challenging confabulation, or addressing the truth, are highly damaging strategies for dementia sufferers.

I am often asked direct questions and have to lie. I could never imagine telling my mum the truth on some occasions, it would be devastating for her. Furthermore, I often lie to make her feel better. For example, the NSPCC adverts used to upset her terribly and she would sob for hours about 'the children'. I would tell her that the children were all OK, that there weren't any suffering children any more. Similarly, if she saw the news about a missing child, I would have to reassure her the child had been found alive and well. Her suffering could go on for weeks otherwise, she'd be inconsolable. Out of interest, what would you do skintchick?

I respect your position on this and think it's a very noble stance to take but surely in some instances (such as the case with a dementia sufferer) you'd be putting your need to be honest ahead of the needs of someone else?

I think you are very noble, your mother is very lucky to have you. I hope you both have a good Christmas (Santa or no Santa.)