Not 'doing' Santa

shegirl

quantumleap wrote: »

I'm sorry... I think you'll find (as I've said before) it is whiskey (with a little water) and a slice of chocolate cake (preferably fudge cake) but he isn't fussy!!

I knew this would be a good thread!!

Nope. It's Champagne, truffles and a mince pie.

Rudolph (aka our pet rabbit:D They come in handy this time of year:rotfl:) gets a carrot, of which he leaves half of the nibbled remains.

The reindeer also get sparkly 'reindeer food' sprinkled along the front path along with the magic snow that leads into the hallway. I then have to go out and put foot prints in it around 1am and sweep the bloomin reindeer food up after drinking the champagne:D

balletshoes

maman wrote: »

All schools should have religious education (from a syllabus that includes teaching about other faiths) and broadly/wholly Christian worship. That's been the law for almost 70 years. Many people feel strongly that this isn't being adhered to in all schools because the school day is so packed with other exam based stuff that it gets sidelined. I'd be surprised if the law changed completely though as the power of church/state/monarchy is very strong.

yes, our primary school certainly has religious education - but not the broadly/wholly Christian worship part (unless they manage to count that one non-compulsory Christingle service per year as the broadly/wholly Christian worship).
Its completely different to the church involvement I had at primary school (we are in England now, but I was educated in Scotland). We were a church-affiliated school (the church sat across the playground from the school). Our minister visited once a week for assembly, we had prayers every day before lunch etc, and I don't remember any other religions being brought into the teaching at all until I got to secondary school.

skintchick

Wow. Looks like I really should have commented earlier on this when it was only just put up instead of leaving it. Seems like the OP is well and truly derailed now!

I was interested to see this thread. and had hopped it would lead to some good discussion, but sadly, as usual, it's ended up being rather overpowered by a few strong opinions from just a few people, and strayed off into a slanging match about religion.

Could I bring it back to the OP? Mainly because we don't do Father Christmas/Santa either and I have rather felt like me and my friend are the only ones!

I don't do FC because I have chosen not to lie to my DD. She is 3.5 now, and I have never lied to her. That doesn't mean I've told her everything either, but if she asks a question, or something needs explaining, then I tell the truth, in a way that is appropriate for her.

So i don't do FC because to do it means you have to lie. in that way it is nothing like religion. If someone tells their child about Allah, then they tell them because they themselves truly believe in Allah, and are sharing that truth with their child.

Despite the quasi-religiosity that surrounds FC in this culture, we all know FC is not real. Not one of you out there is telling your child about FC in the genuine belief that he is real. You know he is not.

So you are choosing to lie.

Now, people do lie, and they do lie for all sorts of reasons, not all of them bad.

So you people who do FC, you choose to lie to your children because you feel that it is something magical and special and that those things make the lie worthwhile, and you believe that discovering in later years that their parents, teachers and indeed most of society have lied to them will not affect your children in any way.

You are entitled to that opinion.

But I don't share it. I believe it is morally wrong to lie to my child, and that I would rather deal with the fallout of telling the truth than tell lies.

So when I have had my miscarriages, my DD's questions have been answered, and she knows that we have five babies who have all died. Other people having miscarriages choose to shield thier children from it, and tell them mummy is ill, but I choose to tell the truth when asked.

A few people have somehow decided that if choose not to tell your child about FC, that you then also eschew all fantasy and imaginative games. This is not true in my case.

My DD is obsessed with mermaids, and loves to play mermaid games. THe difference here is that I still don;t tell her they are real. She knows they are something from stories, that are fun ideas. THis doesn;t appear to have diminished her joy in them in any way. Would she enjoy them more if I said "mermaids are real darling, if we look hard enough we might spot one"? I don't think so.

WE can still play games like that, in the knowledge that we are not actually going to spot one, in the same way that she often is Ariel and I am King TRiton during games.

In fact, imagination comes from pretending things are real rather than believing them to be so.

Clearly, for some people on here the whole FC thing was a massive part of their childhoods - their parents made it a big deal, and they had it really built up for them with putting out food, leaving keys, searching for hoofprints, listening for bells, etc.

And if you've experienced FC in that way, to imagine life without that is probably pretty hard. But it doesn;t mean that anyone who does not do that is somehow deprived.

Christmas is a magical time for many reasons, not just some bloke bringing you presents down your chimney.

What I have told DD is that lots of people like to tell the story of FC, because it's fun. I told her he is not real, but made up like fairies, but that it can be fun to talk about him.

The problem we have now, in this culture, is the absolute obsession with FC.

That's why saying you don't do FC is tantamount to saying you enjoy strangling kittens.

THe shock and disgust apparent in many posts on this thread is just part of that obsession.

But I find it really weird.

I understand that it comes from the lessening influence of religion in people's lives. If you don't believe in the birth of Jesus as a miraculous event, then what do you turn to in order to have a focus to your celebrations?

Of course, there is always the traditional pagan celebration of Yule, but instead FC seems to have stepped into God's place.

But the thing that still bothers me about it is the fact that FC and the Tooth Fairy, while we're at it, are things that you as a parent do not believe in, yet you tell your children they are real.

I genuinely can't get my head round that. I don;t understand why you would deliberately lie to your child (rather than share with them something you believe to be true) and not only that, but encourage everyone else to collude with you in that lie.

I don't see why Christmas can't be magical without lies. Why can't we just have the story of FC without it pretending to be true? WHy does it lessen the enjoyment to know that the bag of presents on your bed was actually bought by Mummy and Daddy?

Originally I was going to quote some of the posts on here so far, but I have decided not to because I don't want to single anyone out, or appear to be creating an argument, because I am not arguing and I have no great issue with anyone having a different opinion to me.

But I do have an issue with being asked, no, told, that I should lie to my child in order that you are not exposed as having lied to yours.

Wow, that ended up being pretty long!

BlondeHeadOn

JimmyTheWig wrote: »

I don't think the OP is not doing Santa because Santa is religious.
I think their point is they don't want to tell their child that something that doesn't exist, does exist. Which, presumably, is their same logic for not telling their child that god exists.

The Tooth Fairy has lucked right out then .....

OrkneyStar

skintchick wrote: »

Skintchicks sensible post in here......

:T:T:T Very well said and worth reading.
I wish I had said what I was trying to say as well as you did, and I agree with pretty much all of it.
Sorry if any of the de-railing/tangent posts you refer to were mine (sadly I think they must be ) , I didn't aim to start this as any debate other than what the OP asked, and should not have risen to the bait back there! Can I just add this on again:
Merry Christmas to one and all. Spare a thought or moment for those who might have nothing/noone this Christmas. Be thankful for what you have and hold.

pulliptears

BlondeHeadOn wrote: »

The Tooth Fairy has lucked right out then .....

Pssst, I have the Easter Bunny's foot on my keys

balletshoes

skintchick wrote: »

What I have told DD is that lots of people like to tell the story of FC, because it's fun. I told her he is not real, but made up like fairies, but that it can be fun to talk about him.

The problem we have now, in this culture, is the absolute obsession with FC.

I agree with just about everything you said skintchick. However, I can see possible problems in the not-so-distant future with your DD having been told by you that FC is not real, he's made up. Unless you've also told her that lots of people believe he is real, and thats okay, I can imagine your daughter upsetting quite a few other children if she decides to innocently tell her classmates what she's been told by you.

skintchick

balletshoes wrote: »

I agree with just about everything you said skintchick. However, I can see possible problems in the not-so-distant future with your DD having been told by you that FC is not real, he's made up. Unless you've also told her that lots of people believe he is real, and thats okay, I can imagine your daughter upsetting quite a few other children if she decides to innocently tell her classmates what she's been told by you.

I thought I'd covered those points, sorry.

Yes I have told her that lots of people tell their children that he is real, but I've not told her that's OK, because in my opinion it isn;t.

And yes, quite likely at some point she will tell her friends, and they will be upset. But actually, I see that as their parent's issue, because it is the parents who have decided to lie.

I can't take responsibility for other people lying to their children, I can only take responsibility for what I say to mine.

So i have told her lots of people like to believe in FC, and as she gets a bit older I'll tell her it might be a good idea to continue to let them believe this, in case it upsets their parents if they know the truth.

But that's as far as it goes.

Idiophreak

skintchick wrote: »

My DD is obsessed with mermaids, and loves to play mermaid games. THe difference here is that I still don;t tell her they are real. She knows they are something from stories, that are fun ideas. THis doesn;t appear to have diminished her joy in them in any way. Would she enjoy them more if I said "mermaids are real darling, if we look hard enough we might spot one"? I don't think so.

WE can still play games like that, in the knowledge that we are not actually going to spot one, in the same way that she often is Ariel and I am King TRiton during games.

In fact, imagination comes from pretending things are real rather than believing them to be so.
...
I don't see why Christmas can't be magical without lies. Why can't we just have the story of FC without it pretending to be true? WHy does it lessen the enjoyment to know that the bag of presents on your bed was actually bought by Mummy and Daddy?

Excellent post, skintchick...I've highlighted the above because I think this is the crux of the issue to me...Does actually believing something make it more enjoyable than just pretending....and, sorry to say, for me - yes, of course it does.

I think this is why the phrase that's used is "make believe" - pretending to look for fairies is just acting and, really, a bit of a waste of time when you think about it. "Making believe" you're looking for fairies is different...your child's imagination is allowed to run riot, to picture what they'd look like, to build hope, excitement and expectation...pretending to do the same thing, with no offence intended, just sounds cold and cynical.

The same thing is absolutely true for adults. Adults love to have their beliefs challenged and, more to the point, to suspend their disbelief - because, fundamentally, *we like believing* - so when something in a film breaks our suspension of disbelief, it jars us. When a magician stuffs up a trick, it makes us sad - because we can't believe any more.

To coin a phrase - we want to believe

stargazer59

skintchick wrote: »

I thought I'd covered those points, sorry.

Yes I have told her that lots of people tell their children that he is real, but I've not told her that's OK, because in my opinion it isn;t.

And yes, quite likely at some point she will tell her friends, and they will be upset. But actually, I see that as their parent's issue, because it is the parents who have decided to lie.

I can't take responsibility for other people lying to their children, I can only take responsibility for what I say to mine.

So i have told her lots of people like to believe in FC, and as she gets a bit older I'll tell her it might be a good idea to continue to let them believe this, in case it upsets their parents if they know the truth.

But that's as far as it goes.

My input on this as a parent and grandparent.

My grand daughter started school a year ago, there was a child in their class who told all the children that they were stupid to believe in Father Christmas as her mother had told her that it was a lie, and that their parents were liars.

The children were upset, as were the parents, but the only one who suffered was the poor little girl, no one wanted to play with her, and even now she has trouble making and keeping friends.

i guess it is great to stand by your beliefs but it will be your child who may have to deal with the fallout.