Not 'doing' Santa

quinechinoise

Person_one wrote: »

I stopped believing relatively young, because a friend's dad had just walked out on the family and her mum had told her the truth about why she wouldn't be getting any presents that year. She told the whole class.

However, cruel as that was,

I don't think that was cruel. Do you think it would be better for a little girl to believe that "santa" had forgotten her that year because her mother had no money for gifts?

That's entirely the sort of reason why I tell my kids: you get gifts that your parents can afford to give you - nothing to do with whether you're on "santa's good list" or whatever.

themull1

skintchick wrote: »

Wow. Looks like I really should have commented earlier on this when it was only just put up instead of leaving it. Seems like the OP is well and truly derailed now!

I was interested to see this thread. and had hopped it would lead to some good discussion, but sadly, as usual, it's ended up being rather overpowered by a few strong opinions from just a few people, and strayed off into a slanging match about religion.

Could I bring it back to the OP? Mainly because we don't do Father Christmas/Santa either and I have rather felt like me and my friend are the only ones!

I don't do FC because I have chosen not to lie to my DD. She is 3.5 now, and I have never lied to her. That doesn't mean I've told her everything either, but if she asks a question, or something needs explaining, then I tell the truth, in a way that is appropriate for her.

So i don't do FC because to do it means you have to lie. in that way it is nothing like religion. If someone tells their child about Allah, then they tell them because they themselves truly believe in Allah, and are sharing that truth with their child.

Despite the quasi-religiosity that surrounds FC in this culture, we all know FC is not real. Not one of you out there is telling your child about FC in the genuine belief that he is real. You know he is not.

So you are choosing to lie.

Now, people do lie, and they do lie for all sorts of reasons, not all of them bad.

So you people who do FC, you choose to lie to your children because you feel that it is something magical and special and that those things make the lie worthwhile, and you believe that discovering in later years that their parents, teachers and indeed most of society have lied to them will not affect your children in any way.

You are entitled to that opinion.

But I don't share it. I believe it is morally wrong to lie to my child, and that I would rather deal with the fallout of telling the truth than tell lies.

So when I have had my miscarriages, my DD's questions have been answered, and she knows that we have five babies who have all died. Other people having miscarriages choose to shield thier children from it, and tell them mummy is ill, but I choose to tell the truth when asked.

A few people have somehow decided that if choose not to tell your child about FC, that you then also eschew all fantasy and imaginative games. This is not true in my case.

My DD is obsessed with mermaids, and loves to play mermaid games. THe difference here is that I still don;t tell her they are real. She knows they are something from stories, that are fun ideas. THis doesn;t appear to have diminished her joy in them in any way. Would she enjoy them more if I said "mermaids are real darling, if we look hard enough we might spot one"? I don't think so.

WE can still play games like that, in the knowledge that we are not actually going to spot one, in the same way that she often is Ariel and I am King TRiton during games.

In fact, imagination comes from pretending things are real rather than believing them to be so.

Clearly, for some people on here the whole FC thing was a massive part of their childhoods - their parents made it a big deal, and they had it really built up for them with putting out food, leaving keys, searching for hoofprints, listening for bells, etc.

And if you've experienced FC in that way, to imagine life without that is probably pretty hard. But it doesn;t mean that anyone who does not do that is somehow deprived.

Christmas is a magical time for many reasons, not just some bloke bringing you presents down your chimney.

What I have told DD is that lots of people like to tell the story of FC, because it's fun. I told her he is not real, but made up like fairies, but that it can be fun to talk about him.

The problem we have now, in this culture, is the absolute obsession with FC.

That's why saying you don't do FC is tantamount to saying you enjoy strangling kittens.

THe shock and disgust apparent in many posts on this thread is just part of that obsession.

But I find it really weird.

I understand that it comes from the lessening influence of religion in people's lives. If you don't believe in the birth of Jesus as a miraculous event, then what do you turn to in order to have a focus to your celebrations?

Of course, there is always the traditional pagan celebration of Yule, but instead FC seems to have stepped into God's place.

But the thing that still bothers me about it is the fact that FC and the Tooth Fairy, while we're at it, are things that you as a parent do not believe in, yet you tell your children they are real.

I genuinely can't get my head round that. I don;t understand why you would deliberately lie to your child (rather than share with them something you believe to be true) and not only that, but encourage everyone else to collude with you in that lie.

I don't see why Christmas can't be magical without lies. Why can't we just have the story of FC without it pretending to be true? WHy does it lessen the enjoyment to know that the bag of presents on your bed was actually bought by Mummy and Daddy?

Originally I was going to quote some of the posts on here so far, but I have decided not to because I don't want to single anyone out, or appear to be creating an argument, because I am not arguing and I have no great issue with anyone having a different opinion to me.

But I do have an issue with being asked, no, told, that I should lie to my child in order that you are not exposed as having lied to yours.

Wow, that ended up being pretty long!

Did your parents do the same with you? Always tell the truth? because if my daughter ever said to me 'mam have you ever been raped' i would lie to her and say no. why would i want to intentionally upset my kids? Sometimes people lie to protect their children, not just to let them believe in magic a bit longer.

peachyprice

Idiophreak wrote: »

Now, that's an interesting signature. Really? Figment of the imagination?

Imagination normally infers thought and creating an image of something yourself. Jesus and Santa Clause aren't imagined...in fact, the polar opposite....You're told explicitly not to think about or question it, but to believe blindly in *someone elses* creation.

A complete aside, I know, but I've never heard Jesus described that way before

Well he's certainly the figment of someone's inagination, not mine, and not those who blindly believe, but someone somewhere thought it would be a wheeze to conjour up some superhero and get people all over the world to believe he was real.

skintchick

stargazer59 wrote: »

My input on this as a parent and grandparent.

My grand daughter started school a year ago, there was a child in their class who told all the children that they were stupid to believe in Father Christmas as her mother had told her that it was a lie, and that their parents were liars.

The children were upset, as were the parents, but the only one who suffered was the poor little girl, no one wanted to play with her, and even now she has trouble making and keeping friends.

i guess it is great to stand by your beliefs but it will be your child who may have to deal with the fallout.

I'm guessing that her parents didn;t talk to her about others' belief in it very sensitively. I wouldn;t say 'their parents are liars' and I wouldn;t tell her people are stupid to believe in it.

So I wouldn't expect her to say those things.

And yes, children deal with the consequences, good or bad, of our decisions as parents every day. I don't see what is so special about FC that means I should suspend my own beliefs and morals though.

I would think that the child in your story has trouble making and keeping friends for many other reasons than that one happening. It sounds like she might actually not be the nicest girl, with not the nicest parents.

I on the other hand am lovely and my DD is a delight, so no worries on that front

ETA: Also, that smacks a bit of blackmail to me - tell your child the same lies as I tell mine or no-one will be friends with you. Not very nice, that, is it?

skintchick

Idiophreak wrote: »

Excellent post, skintchick...I've highlighted the above because I think this is the crux of the issue to me...Does actually believing something make it more enjoyable than just pretending....and, sorry to say, for me - yes, of course it does.

I think this is why the phrase that's used is "make believe" - pretending to look for fairies is just acting and, really, a bit of a waste of time when you think about it. "Making believe" you're looking for fairies is different...your child's imagination is allowed to run riot, to picture what they'd look like, to build hope, excitement and expectation...pretending to do the same thing, with no offence intended, just sounds cold and cynical.

The same thing is absolutely true for adults. Adults love to have their beliefs challenged and, more to the point, to suspend their disbelief - because, fundamentally, *we like believing* - so when something in a film breaks our suspension of disbelief, it jars us. When a magician stuffs up a trick, it makes us sad - because we can't believe any more.

To coin a phrase - we want to believe

I disagree. The games DD and I play are not cold or cynical! She has loads of fun, and I'm pretty sure that while playing she does suspend her disbelief and is reallylooking for mermaids/fairies/whatever. But at the end of the day she knows they are just a story. But I don;t think that ruins it in any way.

People might want to believe all sorts of things, and it might be fun to belive them perhaps, but knowing the truth about things doesn't, in my opinion, suck all the fun out of life.

skintchick

broace wrote: »

Why wouldn't you tell your Children about things like that? Obviously you do it in an appropriate fashion. Bit emotive turn for a thread about santa though.

If she was mature enough to ask the question, she'd be mature enough to be told the truth in a sensitive way.

But first I'd ask her why she was asking me about that. Most likely the real questions she had would not be about me, but about rape itself, which is a very important topic of discussion for both daughters and sons, once they are mature enough.

stargazer59

skintchick wrote: »

I'm guessing that her parents didn;t talk to her about others' belief in it very sensitively. I wouldn;t say 'their parents are liars' and I wouldn;t tell her people are stupid to believe in it.

So I wouldn't expect her to say those things.

And yes, children deal with the consequences, good or bad, of our decisions as parents every day. I don't see what is so special about FC that means I should suspend my own beliefs and morals though.

I would think that the child in your story has trouble making and keeping friends for many other reasons than that one happening. It sounds like she might actually not be the nicest girl, with not the nicest parents.

I on the other hand am lovely and my DD is a delight, so no worries on that front

Actually she is a dear little thing!

The parents i am sure did not tell her that the other parents were liars, i imagine they just told her that Father Christmas was not real and the stories about him were untrue.

Thus the child saw parents telling children he was real as lies.

I have 4 children and 2 grandchildren and i can assure you they trust me, but as small children the mysteries and wonder of Father Christmas was and is alive and strong in this house with no harm done.

skintchick

themull1 wrote: »

Did your parents do the same with you? Always tell the truth? because if my daughter ever said to me 'mam have you ever been raped' i would lie to her and say no. why would i want to intentionally upset my kids? Sometimes people lie to protect their children, not just to let them believe in magic a bit longer.

How does lying to them help though? It's not about intentionally upsetting them - that would be suddenly announcing over Sunday lunch 'hey kids I was raped!' - it's about honouring their trust in you by being trustworthy and truthful, and being the kind of parent they can talk to about anything because you will answer in an honest and thoughtful way, allowing them time and space in a safe environment to explore their thoughts and feelings.

ciderwithrosie_2

In my family we were always told that FC only brought the stocking presents, so that people who had thought of us and spent their money could be thanked appropriately. However, I found out quite young that he didn't exist and don't remember being traumatised by this, Christmas was still 'magical' because of family traditions, spending time together etc, I've never been that fussed about having a pile of presents.

When my boys were small we explained FC in the same way, and they being intelligent and somewhat cynical lads didn't believe for too long either. Infact, they thought it fairly ridiculous that their cousins were still being hoodwinked by their parents at aged 10 or 11 (and were threatened not to give the game away!).

I am usually very honest and open with my boys and lying didn't sit too comfortably. The Tooth Fairy didn't happen at all! I admire those that have chosen not to perpetuate this for not bowing to social pressure.

As I've said before, I think it does set up an unrealistic expectation, how can you explain away not being able to afford or actually manage to buy the much desired present if you've told them FC brings it all - after all, he's magic and can do anything!

skintchick

stargazer59 wrote: »

Actually she is a dear little thing!

.

In which case the other children and more pertinently their parents need to get over it and stop boycotting this 'dear little thing' because she told an uncomfortable (for some) truth.