The Polls - Labour Lead At 14 - Is It The Economy?

GeorgeHowell

Everything has become more politicised. It's a feature of left-wing thinking : the right consider politics to be a part of life, whereas to the left life is politics and vice-versa. As the country has become more left wing in it's thinking, so life has become more politicised. Coupled with this is another major feature of left-wing thinking : that the end justifies the means. Morality and truth can justifiably be bent or disregarded if the expected outcome is a politically desirable one. If it were to turn out, as is being suggested in the media, that Mitchell was stitched up as a result of politically motivated left-wing elements within the Police Federation set on damaging a Conservative led government, then it would be completely consistent with these elements of left-wing thinking.

Thrugelmir

MacMickster wrote: »

I'm not so sure that that there are many police officers with left-wing views,

Ultimately people make decisions to protect their own interests and views (i.e. when pay and conditions are under review). Political leanings often are little more than a distraction. Core membership of all political parties has diminished progressively over recent decades.

GeorgeHowell

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Ultimately people make decisions to protect their own interests and views (i.e. when pay and conditions are under review). Political leanings often are little more than a distraction. Core membership of all political parties has diminished progressively over recent decades.

The militant left sees trade unions as a key battleground. No doubt those running the Police Federation are politically more left wing than the average copper is.

Thrugelmir

GeorgeHowell wrote: »

The militant left sees trade unions as a key battleground. No doubt those running the Police Federation are politically more left wing than the average copper is.

I remember the militant left well. As I said self interest rules.

Former miners' leader Arthur Scargill has lost his High Court fight to have the National Union of Mineworkers continue to meet the costs of his London flat for his lifetime.

grizzly1911

GeorgeHowell wrote: »

. Coupled with this is another major feature of left-wing thinking : that the end justifies the means. Morality and truth can justifiably be bent or disregarded if the expected outcome is a politically desirable one.

I am not so sure that this has anything to do with left wing thinking, just self interest.

GeorgeHowell

grizzly1911 wrote: »

I am not so sure that this has anything to do with left wing thinking, just self interest.

The mililtant hard left is motivated by self interest. They want to be in charge instead of the people who are now. But I think it's fairly well established and accepted that "the end justifies the means" is a facet of left wing political thought.

MacMickster

GeorgeHowell wrote: »

The mililtant hard left is motivated by self interest. They want to be in charge instead of the people who are now. But I think it's fairly well established and accepted that "the end justifies the means" is a facet of left wing political thought.

I don't subscribe to either right wing or left wing philosophies as both are philosophies of failure.

From this forum alone, however, I do find that most of the posts which smack of self-interest appear to come from those who can clearly be linked to a right wing ideology.

I also find it a bit rich when posters claim that the UK is becoming ever more left wing. I can't imagine that a party with the policies of the Labour party of the 1970s would get even 10% of the electoral vote today. The current Labour party is certainly positioned somewhat to the right of Ted Heath's conservative government.

GeorgeHowell

MacMickster wrote: »

I don't subscribe to either right wing or left wing philosophies as both are philosophies of failure.

From this forum alone, however, I do find that most of the posts which smack of self-interest appear to come from those who can clearly be linked to a right wing ideology.

I also find it a bit rich when posters claim that the UK is becoming ever more left wing. I can't imagine that a party with the policies of the Labour party of the 1970s would get even 10% of the electoral vote today. The current Labour party is certainly positioned somewhat to the right of Ted Heath's conservative government.

Both left and right politics are certainly failures in this country because we are so poorly governed and there is no major party available that even barely represents the interest of the people who vote for it.

It depends how you define self-interest. To some people saying for example that they object to paying tax for serial welfare beneficiaries who give nothing back in return represents unreasonable self-interest. To those who say it it represents fairness and common sense. It depends how the political compass is calibrated.

New Labour was (and no doubt Labour still is) more left wing than many people imagine. In some 'headline' issues, like sucking up to the Americans and to big business, and waging wars, there was certainly an impression of a 'wet' Tory government in Labour clothing. But a lot went on further down the ladder that was very leftist such as :- creeping political correctness, the human rights farce, dumbing down of state education to counter 'elitism', ever softer criminal justice policies, virtually unrestricted immigration, placing the public sector in a priviliged position over the private, fairly indiscriminate welfare, aquiescence to the EU, and ever increasing government deficits and debt to fund such a programme.

Heath only became 'wet' when his incompetence and spinelessness caused his right of centre agenda to fail and he completely lost the plot.

padington

The whole gate gate thing is because the police are actually being policed and audited for once by the coalition and they don't like it. They are on a war footing and anyone who disliked the unions throwing their weight around in a selfish and anti social manner should give the police no leniency. Those also that saw the police write to miners family's in poverty and poke fun at how much overtime they were getting from maggie should equally show no leniency either. The police are vastly overpaid and an under performing part of public life and have brought shame on old blighty by their new found ability to take bribes, lie, make up evidence, close ranks and generally be a cancer in the British notion of fair play even when many many lives and the honour of those lives were taken unnecessarily so or the fabric of British democracy or free press was at stake.

The left / right issue on the other hand is about a big state or a small state these days i think. I'm actually left of center but do think we need a smaller state or at least a completely different one. We know how to look after each other when it comes to families because we've been doing so for millions of years but looking after each other in a global village of strangers we are lost. The idea that money from the state for doing nothing is a way of looking after people - deserves to be put to rest. We need to replace the welfare state with an innovation state. We need less social workers, police officers and dare i say nurses and more innovation workers. Why do we wait to spend billions fixing problems after they have been created and instead try to stop the problems happening in the first place? Crime can be halved by allowing all doctors to prescribe and tax all drugs and using location tracking devices on the wrists of prolific offenders. Health costs can be cut by ensuring there is no end of competitive sport when people finish school and with a greater understanding of personal genetic genomes and lets for havens sake introduce 5 year health 'mot's'. Lets become the start up capital of the world and provide every person with a brilliant idea 10k to get the idea up and running. Lets cut the red tape that stops a kid from selling homemade lemon aid outside their house. Lets introducing entrepreneurship into the education system right from the beginning and place it as significant as English and maths. Also lets allow different area's to trial new idea's. Blanket bans across the country as is common with the drug laws for example must stop. Lets allow things to be tested and have a society driven by science not dogma. It seems pretty obvious to me, why the parties are so crap at bringing in change is testimony that central government shouldn't be given so much power, power needs to be decentralised massively. The old left and right is dogma in itself. We need to think instead of the 'old way' and many new 'ways'.

MacMickster

GeorgeHowell wrote: »

It depends how you define self-interest. To some people saying for example that they object to paying tax for serial welfare beneficiaries who give nothing back in return represents unreasonable self-interest. To those who say it it represents fairness and common sense. It depends how the political compass is calibrated.

In fairness, you alone of the right wing contributors, spoke out in another thread about the ridiculous idea that "the state" should provide "free" care for the wealthy in their old age. We have had right wing contributors who are "entitled" to their child benefit and find it disgraceful that it is being snatched from them. We have many who don't accept that a lot of apparently profitable "private" enterprises are dependent on subsidised labour in this country, and also public sector contracts. The majority of the right wing seem to view high house prices and low interest rates as some sort of present from Santa Claus rather than the economic disaster that they represent.

Taxation is the price of a civilised society, but politicians of whatever persuasion seem to believe in spending more than they raise through taxation in order to bribe the electorate.

Taxation, public expenditure and, indeed, borrowing is not a bad thing. We must have the infrastructure in place which will allow businesses in this country to be able to operate competetively. The NHS, for all of its many faults, is undoubtedly one of the most efficient health care systems in the developed world. We should provide benefits to support those who are unable (as opposed to disinclined) to support themselves, and it is also right that we should support people through temporary periods of misfortune. A state pension to support those who are no longer productive due to their age should also be paid from taxation.


It is not right, however, that public money is spent to the degree that it is support the workshy, gymslip mothers and their offspring, the arts and a multidude of projects which although "nice to have" are not essential. Nor should the NHS be providing elective treatments such as cosmetic processes, fertility treatment etc which pose no long term threat to a patients health. If someone would like a wart removed then they should pay for it.

In work benefits should be scrapped. If an employer can't afford to pay a living wage to their employees and still operate profitably then they aren't a viable business. In work benefits are effectively susidising failure.

That said, I don't believe that we should be letting people starve to death in this country. Whilst we don't have full employment I would offer the workshy a basic subsistence level of benefits, housing them in sink estates and providing them with ration cards for food, second hand household goods etc, and ban them from car ownership. There is no point in forcing them to apply for jobs when others actually want to work and would be more productive for an employer, but a few years of genuine poverty may change their attitudes.