best wood Pellet store / Hopper?

theballboy

I'm having a buffer tank fitted with the ponast boiler 800l I think to prevent boiler cycling up and down. Be great if I could get away with one hour like yourself. The water stays warm all day ready to be used?

nqsib

thank you.

[Deleted User]

deleted, mis-read something

DanRichards

theballboy wrote: »

I'm having a buffer tank fitted with the ponast boiler 800l I think to prevent boiler cycling up and down. Be great if I could get away with one hour like yourself. The water stays warm all day ready to be used?

It sure does. I'm quite impressed really. The tank is brand new and was part of the install. Im sure an older tank would be different.

theballboy

Think that's the whole plan with the buffer tank we are having fitted. The boiler will heat that and then the house will draw from it just when heat or hot water called for leaving wood burner out of the equation. (Just used to heat the tank)

lostinrates

DanRichards wrote: »

We definetely arent in a "eco" house!! Our hot water is set to come on for one hour in the morning. I make sure the boiler has been on for at least an hour so that its up to temperature and isnt going to waste pellets. With this one hour of hot water there is enough to have two showers and a bath in the evening, with water plenty hot enough for the washing up. There is till hot water for washing the kids before school in the morning.
It took a while to setup right, with a bit of experimenting, but ive got it fine tuned now! If we have overnight visitors i can just advance the hot water for an extra hour no problem, though i grumble a bit!!

We have a 24kw boiler and a 250 litre water tank setup as a pressurised system.

Wow. That's reassuring. Our systems sound very different in set up but if we get hot water I'll be content.

nemocharley

theballboy wrote: »

I've done quite a bit of research to date. The whole thing has been borne out of the fact that we are spending £2200 + a year on oil and bottom line is that it's too much and something needs to be done. Started looking at a multi fuel stove and having it plumbed (wet system) to heat the rads and water but it all worked out at about the same sort of spend but add in the initial outlay of £2500

So then I came across the wood pellet option. I'm in Northern Ireland so I can benefit from the £2500 interim heat payment. Then the payment scheme launching in summer 2013

Iv had a heat loss calculation done on the house to enable m calculate the size of boiler required and what tonnage of pellets I should need over the year.

The boilers Iv looked at so far are

Austrian (Big money)
Kwb £15k
Froiling £11k
Viessman £12k
Guntamatic £11k
Herz £11-12k (Czech)
These are prob best ones. Very reliable and automated. If you can afford it they're the ones to go for. The prices I've been quoted include installation and commissioning.

All the boilers I'm looking will need to be installed by an mcs registered installers. This is a pre-requisite to avail of the heat premium payment and the rhi payment when it launches. The talk in the industry at the minute is that the rhi will probably be linked to boiler output. Ie 15kw or 25kw. For me at around 25kw I'm hoping for a £600 to £700 annual payment (will not be based on how much u paid for the boiler so a £4k boiler will receive the same payment as a £15k boiler.
My research has suggested that indeed the higher priced boilers will most likely give more years of service. Prob 20 years instead of 10 for a budget one. However that made me think then. What's the difference? £6k for a budget boiler which lasts 10 years or £12-15k for 20 years. Ill maybe take my chances on a budget one and hope that it delivers more than 10

I think the difference between budget and higher priced boilers are these

Compensation.
The Austrian ones don't believe in this as a principle. Some argue that the process causes acid to accrue and destroy the boiler from the inside hence shortening the life whereas the budget conscious boilers will generally use this process.

Automation
The Austrian ones are highly automated and are almost all self cleaning (apart from emptying the ash). But in saying that most of the other budget ones are semi automated now, maybe cranking a handle 3 or 4 times to clear baffler etc

Experience
The Scandinavians have been using these systems for ages and have perfected both the functionality and reliability of them. They really know their stuff
The problem with the uk and Irish ones is that they are relatively new to the game. Most of them come from backgrounds in oil or gas boilers (firebird / grant) Some are brand new startups (gee). I have to say I'd be wary of the start ups because you can't be sure how long they will be in business for and how long they will have available parts. For example, the oil boiler that's in our house when bought new is a "gerkoss". Irish firm that peaked in the boom and bust in the bust ( after setting a few sites on fire with their dodgy boilers). I needed a flu recently which was unobtainable

Anyway these are the ones I'm considering at the moment

Ponast (Czech) this will run around £8-£9 but includes a buffer tank
The buffer tank is a hot debate though. Yes there are many boilers out there that can run fine without one but it means they must fire up and down quite often which reduces their efficiency. Heating a buffer tank of 800litres for our home to draw from when needed is much more efficient and will both prolong the life of the boiler (theoretically) and burn less pellets. Problem comes in the summer when that tank is full and your thermostats arnt calling for heat. It's not needed etc
The boiler is self modulating so will adjust itself to meet the demands and run as efficiently as it can by adjusting its output. The kpu 21 I'm looking at can run I think from 16 right up to 28kw depending on need

Grant. (Spira boiler)
This is an Irish firm who are well known for their oil / combi boilers. They recently won an award for the newly developed "condensing" wood pellet boiler. Highly efficient figures quoted of 97% due to using the heat released in gases through the flu. Many installers will tell you they are a great firm to work with and produce good boilers. The owner himself (multimillionaire) is always
involved in the designing etc. he's a passionate engineer and that's how he sees himself ("running around the factory with the !!!! hanging outta his trousers getting his hands dirty" was a recent quote) leaning towards them at the minute

Gee (slimpel 25)
Another Irish firm (but only in business for about 4 years) there boiler was designed from scratch (not borrowed or copied) is semi cleaning and 94% efficient (their own figures). I can have this installed and commisioned by an mcs registered installer for £3200 after taking the grant off.

Firebird

Mcz red compact
Big player in the pellet stove market and have food reputation all round

Greenflame ( by trianco)
Trianco are a British firm who have a strong and long reputation in the heating industry for going on 80years. They have either an indoor or outdoor model. The outdoor model can directly replace your oil boiler and has a relatively small footprint too

That's an issue for people. Space. If you have a purpose built boiler room that you want to put the boiler in you would need to check out your sizes carefully. You really have to plan where these things are going to be situated and how you want to run them. Most have built in hoppers of varying sizes between 60-120kg capacity. Obviously the bigger the hopper the less often you need to fill it. And how do you intend to fill it. Will you be using bagged pellets? Refilling every other day possibly

I discounted the large storage idea at first but then did the calculations on the pellet pricing. 1ton bagged =£250 average. 1ton blown in to large 3.5 ton storage - £195 per ton. That's a huge difference. Given that ill most likely be burning 8ton a year that's a £400 difference per year! So that's why I'm looking at the storage possibilities at the minute. Maybe £1.5k extra for a 3.5ton storage option but itll def pay for itself in a few years. For some people its the hassle of having to refill all the time manually with bags where thr store is automated (fed by auger) but inthink id be more confident with the bags. Large hoppers can be prone to damp. And that's when it all goes pear shaped. If moisture gets in. Augers become jammed, boilers run inefficiently and smoke up and develop problems etc. people will tell you that their storage is damp proof but I'm realistic. I live in Northern Ireland. The weather is !!!!!. It's generally always !!!!!. It generally always damp.

The things you need to educate yourself on and ask questions about are these
How long does the company making the boiler guarantee parts to be available for?
What's thd warranty like and does it include labour

Does the boiler have burn back protection? (which most should have)
What level of mantainence is involved in cleaning?
Does it need a buffer tank?
Is there an option to add a solar thermal store at some point? (which I want to do)
Does the boiler have lambda control?
Is it self modulating (adjust its output to meet demands and efficiency?
Will your installer perform a heat loss calculation and estimate the tonnage required for your system?
Does system have smart phone or web functionality?

Remember at the end of the day, don't believe everything they tell you, they want to sell you the product their attached too. Ask them all questions and you'll see the different response you'll get.

I hope this info helps. I know it might be a bit much but I can be a bit of a nut when it comes to researching something and trying to find the most suitable product.

If any others start to chime in on this thread then ill keep folk updated on the quotes that roll in on different systems and which I decide to go with.

Thank You for this comprehensive answer. I think we are of the same ilk, as I have spent close to a year researching the market and my options regarding pellet boilers, solar heating etc.

I would like to share a little about my findings. First I have no affiliations at all, I have preferences for sure but no interests that I need to promote. I stumpled across this forum just now - so my answer probably isn´t timely - sorry. My english skills are a bit rusty - sorry.

So here goes:

The market is purposely incomprehensible as there seems to be money in misleading the customer. Consider yourselves warned.

Assuming that You are only interested in using pellets and not other "bio-burnables" - here is my advice.

"Austrian" boilers. The best for sure. And the most expensive. I would add windhager, hoval biolyt, pellematic and biotech. Note: Be careful of so called condensing pellet boilers, reading different foras I gather that they suffer from expensive complications after 4-6 years use.

The Slimpel is a Turkish boiler from a big company named Kosluzan i believe. It holds the same reputation for affordable quality products as the Polish company Kostrzewa (take a good look at the mini bio and the compact bio). They are not fully automated, but close enough and the Slimpel is making a breakthrough in the Danish market right now because it is quickly getting a reputation for being both rugged and reliable - and still with high effeciency. The price is 30dkr or roughly 3000 pounds. A major advantage of these products seems to be that the maintenance costs seems to be quite low. Please note that the new class 5 (that hit DK this year and you guys next year) requirements have made these boilers even more attractive.

The "swedish" burners. If you want reliability over the course of two to three decades and You dont mind spending slightly more time cleaning the boiler - and you can live with a less compact look - then this is the way to go. And the prices aren´t offensive - or at least they shouldn´t be - as none of them costs more than 4000 pounds here in DK. Be aware however that although the Swedes makes sturdy burners, they dont produce boilers - or not that many at least. (värmebaronen and biosol being notable exceptions). The boiler I reccomend most often is the Chech Atmos - a very sturdy and simple boiler. There is also a very good slovakian boiler but the name escapes me.
The price for all this simplicity, sturdyness and longevity is that you get no high tech controlling options, and you have limited next to none modulation capacity. This means that the burner starts, heats and then stops like a standard oil burner. This is why I always recommend solar heating with this type of burners. They use too much energy in the summer time and it is very rough on the smaller parts in the burner with many frequent starts and stops.

For my own part I just bought a Pellmax Ub from Vârmebaronen and solar heating (german/austrian setup which uses a storage tank that the boiler also heats - to ensure fewer starts and stops). The combined price of this setup was roughly 8000£. But my yearly pelletconsumption will probably be just around 2½ tonnes - which makes things very cheap - and very easy to maintain. This is an important point by the way - I wouldn´t go this way if you know that you will use much more than 6-7 tonnes of pellets pr year. A more automated system would be better in my opinion. Personally I was very close to purchasing the Slimpel 10kw instead.

Speaking of kw - the swedish burners - iwabo, ulma, swebo, pellx etc. tend to be around 20kw in their most effecient state - which is about 90%. My house is a 7kw house so 20kw power is way too much - but this is compensated by the water storage tank and the fact that the burner is shut of 5-6 months a year.

Solar heating: Don´t just by a system that affects your hot water usage. If You have water born central heating - get a system that heats the entire house and gives you hot water. This means - a buffertank (300-2000 liters typically), a freash water station for hot water usage (not a tank but an exchanger), the sun heats the bottom the furnace heats the top - so if the sun heats the entire tank, the furnace lies dormant. Dimensions: 1 vacuum tube needs at least 5 liters of water - at least, 10 liters is optimum if the tubes are situated perfectly (due south, 40-60 degrees roof-tilt). Tubes are the way to go in less sunnier climates. Set up correctly it will slash of up to 40% of your yearly pellet consumption - maybe even more (in a well insulated floor/wall heated house). I have seen very large installations 5000 liter storage tank 50m2 panels that basically took care of 70-80% of the house´s energy needs.

With that kind of solar heating it makes no sense to invest in a very expensive pellet boiler - don´t go above 5000£ is my opinion. And remember the solar heat is free - forever.

If you are looking for a biomass boiler that burns more than pellets I would look to Denmark. Twinheat, P&H, Fumo, Reka and KSM are all high quality products. But that´s another story.

Okay - list of Swedish products.
CTC Ecoflex (a personal favourite - esp. if you combine with their heat pumps and/or solar)
Viking Bio from Värmebaronen - many combination options
Biosol (not a burner but a combined boiler and storage tank - brilliant if you know that solar heating is your choice - and actually a good price in total - 10000£ i believe for 100 tubes, 600litertank, 300liter mafa hopper, boiler and a iwabo burner/or some other swedish burner of your choice - but it takes up some space)
Vølund (Nibe-group) new little powerful boiler with lots of fancy schmancy programmming options - Pellux 100 Pbmax20 burner (iwabo copy) - new trend from the swedes - also it modulates between 5 and 20kw, all for the nifty sum of 3000£
Swebo
Ulma
Iwabo
Pellx (a popular burner here in DK)

For more automated and fully modulation systems I would look to Turkey and Poland. Esp. if solar heating is in play.
or: 1) In DK we have the Passat Bioheat (resembles the Greenflame somewhat) - 5000£ which is okay or 2) the very cheap and popular NBE Scotte 2500£

Also a case can be made for people to buy locally - often there is a better service network. The MCZ compact is also known here in DK and has a fair reputation.

I probably forgot st.

And now to the issue with the Ponast. Please bear in mind that I do not know the boiler but I am very familiar with the system-theory.

From what I read I can say that the good news is that You´re halfway there - at least. Setting a pellet boiler up with a buffer tank is probably the best way to prolong the life span of the boiler, and to make sure You have the best efficiency. I suggest You to add solar heat as soon as possible - 80 to 160 tubes can be used with a 800litre buffer. With this combination you´ll have a tried and true system that yet stands to be beaten.

Reasons for not heating sufficiently:
1) wrong setup - the boiler should only be heating the top third of the buffer (half at max if You use a lot of hot water) - does the installer truly know the system and the brand?
2) faulty programming (manufacturer - guarantee?)
3) Mechanical problem - a faulty pump can wreck havoc on a system?
4) Wrong size: 28kw can likely heat 600 average insulated square meters.
5) faulty sensor - the boiler can´t read the temperature of the buffertank
6) Too much air in the system. This can be a pesty but solvable problem if a water born central heating system has been standing empty and dry for a longer period.

That´s it. Bye for now.

Del731

Anyone any experience of the pellet boiler slimpel 25 pellet boiler by gee. Northern Irish firm with a base in Cumbria.

It's fully modulating and 94% efficient.

It's Turkish built but have talked to a few customers and they say its great. It's costing 5.5k installed which is a lot less than European brands. Too good to be true.

nemocharley

The Slimpel is getting quite the reputation here in DK. I have seen a couple up close - they are pretty straight forward not as fine in detail as the "austrian" boilers - but they are very good and Kozlusan really got the basics down for this type of pellet boiler.
It is almost fully automated, the basic model has handle/lever you´ll have to pull once a week to keep the tubes clean. The ash bin must be cleaned for every 500kg or so, and the boiler must be fully cleaned once a year or every 4-5 tonnes or so.

Only problem I heard of (and I have really tried to keep myself well informed) is that a few pellets jumps off the slide and land below the burner but I have seen this solved by some by simply making an iron-net around the burner.

The digital settings and system is not advanced but it really works well, I gather that for some people it´s necessary to change the standard settings for optimal efficiency.

It is excellent as a stand alone system but solar heating, xtra hopper etc are easily added (at least here in DK).

Personally I still speculate whether or not it would have been better for me to buy the Slimpel 10kw - but that is too late now.

For more info - go to the danish site Stokerpro.dk - look under MGM-Pillefyr (danish name for Slimpel boilers) or Mit fyrrum og mine indstillinger (my boiler room and my settings). Plenty of pics, it is of course in danish - but people speak and write english - more or less.