Taking the micky

Daedalus

TrickyWicky wrote: »

So tell me a bit about yourself then because I have this hunch that you're not at the bottom of the ladder, in fact I think you're doing pretty well for yourself. That makes you one of those hypocrites I was talking about that likes to trash those at the bottom in the worst and most desperate circumstances.

I could be wrong about you but having come across people with your sort of excuses so many times in my life, I doubt it.

I am not bottom of the ladder. I have been at the bottom, used the resources available, got a degree and now I earn a decent wage.

I am not trashing those at the bottom, I am trashing those who choose to remain on benefits when they can work.

It is you who are trying to make excuses to explain your situation, that it is all someone else's fault, that no matter how hard you try everyone keeps beating you down. It just doesn't wash.

sniggings

Dangermac wrote: »

I dont think that's what I said, or implied.

All I'm saying is that it is possible (not a guarantee) to progress your career by working hard. Sure, the occasional lucky break helps, but there are a lot of people who are blaming the system/Government/society/capitalism/etc on their inability to earn a living.

I also said that you have to combine hard work with making good career decisions, and that hard work alone isnt enough.

At the end of the day, the current economy is how it's going to be for the foreseeable. You have a choice.

- Do something about it
- Accept defeat

Your choice. That's just how it is.

Harsh? Maybe. But that's reality.

DM

I have worked all my life so if the capitalism comment was aimed at me your way off the mark, I'm just trying to give people like you an insight to why so many people do not think taking a min wage job is worth while, for every one person that makes it thousands don't and people know that, telling them to take the job sweeping streets as it will make you feel better about yourself or give you a step up the ladder is seen for what it is, which is having a sub base of people at the bottom to support those at the top.

Dangermac

sniggings wrote: »

I have worked all my life so if the capitalism comment was aimed at me your way off the mark, I'm just trying to give people like you an insight to why so many people do not think taking a min wage job is worth while, for every one person that makes it thousands don't and people know that, telling them to take the job sweeping streets as it will make you feel better about yourself or give you a step up the ladder is seen for what it is, which is having a sub base of people at the bottom to support those at the top.

Wasnt aimed at you at all. Absolutely not

I'm just saying that this current economic climate isnt a blip. That's how it is.

You have a choice:

- Do something about it
- Accept defeat

Everyone has a choice.

Simple as that

DM

TrickyWicky

Dangermac wrote: »

All I'm saying is that it is possible (not a guarantee) to progress your career by working hard. Sure, the occasional lucky break helps, but there are a lot of people who are blaming the system/Government/society/capitalism/etc on their inability to earn a living.

I actually think you've come a long way in this thread to be honest. In the first few pages you were actually sounding rather harsh against those of us at the bottom and in this last page you seem to have actually acknowledged that many of us do have a harder time than you realised.

Luck goes a long way for some people. Some people have luck, others don't. When I was a cabbie, I met a lot of people who had been in the right place at the right time, got a foot up the ladder etc. I still remember one kid from London who was bragging to me about how he had no GCSEs yet had talked his way into an accountancy firm and was now going through a degree in it and also owned 2 houses. The guy wouldn't shut up.. there was I earning LESS than the NMW and this prat was full of how life was so wonderful to him.

Anyway, the second part of your quoted post I must address. I was a kid in the 80s under the Thatcher / Major governments when there was a witch hunt against single mothers scrounging scum. I was one of those kids and I will tell you now, those governments did as much harm to people like me as they possibly could. My schooling was screwed up, college was made so difficult I couldn't stay and things just got worse from there. Then there was the family strife between my parent and their parents, the poverty, the other social carp that comes with it and yes, I must say that the system, society and capitalism do play a large role in keeping those at the bottom at the bottom. I've worked my backside off in every job in the belief that one day one of my employers would actually recognise my efforts and give me a real chance and no, not one of them did. I always went the extra mile, I always offered help when it was needed and all I got was lack of appreciation and hell from people.

Thats all stuff you could never understand unless you have been through it so unless you have been through it, you're not really qualified to judge those of us at the bottom who have issues with the state. Sorry if you don't like that but its the truth I'm afraid.

Daedalus wrote: »

It is you who are trying to make excuses to explain your situation, that it is all someone else's fault, that no matter how hard you try everyone keeps beating you down. It just doesn't wash.

No, as I predicted in my last post, you're above others and you think it gives you the right to look down your nose at the rest of us and accuse us all of being lazy benefit scrounging dirt. I'm not making excuses, I've been treated like dirt all my life and always did my damndest to keep fighting determined to get somewhere and make something of myself. The problem is when people are continually standing against you and trying to knock you down there is only so much of it you can take before you turn bitter and can't be bothered to give anymore goodwill to employers. FYI I am not on benefits either. Yes I'm out of work but I don't enjoy it, I'd rather be working too before you decide to pick fault with that.

You spoke of resources available to you when you were at the bottom. No doubt free / low cost degrees were one of them which we people at the bottom don't have access to?

Daedalus

TrickyWicky wrote: »

No, as I predicted in my last post, you're above others and you think it gives you the right to look down your nose at the rest of us and accuse us all of being lazy benefit scrounging dirt. I'm not making excuses, I've been treated like dirt all my life and always did my damndest to keep fighting determined to get somewhere and make something of myself. The problem is when people are continually standing against you and trying to knock you down there is only so much of it you can take before you turn bitter and can't be bothered to give anymore goodwill to employers. FYI I am not on benefits either. Yes I'm out of work but I don't enjoy it, I'd rather be working too before you decide to pick fault with that.

You spoke of resources available to you when you were at the bottom. No doubt free / low cost degrees were one of them which we people at the bottom don't have access to?

As I predicted, you blame everyone else and refuse to accept any responsibility for the situation you find yourself in.

I didn't call you a lazy benefit scrounger. I said those who refuse to take a job and remain on benefits are lazy benefit scroungers. Directly clearly at one person in this thread who said he would not work for NMW, not necessarily you.

University is open to anyone with the ability, you might need to work part time but it is easily doable. College courses are either free or heavily subsidised for those 'at the bottom'. I know many many people who have had !!!! lives, started with nothing and used education resources to better themselves.

JDC14

Meh, I can see both sides of the argument, but my judgement;

Yeah, it's retail, but it sales driven. But just you go out there and try and sell a stapler? If people need it they'll come and get it.

90+ questions, to (I've used Staples, this is literally all they do), Scan your items, take your money, put them in a bag, refill the empty shelf and occasionally hoover.

To have to go through a 90+ question app, that must take at least an hour, is an absolute joke. Whether the climate is better for employers or not, that is ridiculous.

I hope they weren't so tired of making up pathetic questions that they asked even more at the end about what you thought of the application process like a lot of companies ask these days, because that is ridiculous.

j.e.j.

It happens in many jobs these days. I found that even applying for a basic low-pay job in a library, re-shelving books, you have to write out a lengthy detailed application form, giving examples, and know exactly what they are looking for. It's crazy now. I'm sure it didn't used to be like this.

sniggings

Dangermac wrote: »

Wasnt aimed at you at all. Absolutely not

I'm just saying that this current economic climate isnt a blip. That's how it is.

You have a choice:

- Do something about it
- Accept defeat

Everyone has a choice.

Simple as that

DM

your right, you either try hard and hope for the best or you don't bother, I understand that but my crusade is to change peoples understanding of why some people see no point in working, I see them as facts not excuses, a family will almost always be better off on benefits, I know a couple of guys that both have more than 6 kids, the benefits and house they live in could never be paid for with a job, as they just be not have the skill set for a high paying job, but they are extremes as only around 3% of benefit claiments have more than 4 kids, but even 2-3 kids it is still not likely most will be able to get a job paying enough to support the family, people see and understand that, so it's not a question of working hard and you will do better, they are doing what best for them in the situation, which is providing the most they can for the family, telling them they will feel better about themselves has never worked and never will, make work pay and not as Nick Clegg says around £40 better off, work needs to really pay or we will never fix the problem, those are facts no opinion, you can either accept them and try and change the situation or carry on spouting those on benefits need to work harder (lets hope not too many of them succeed or you will have no one to serve you your Costa, wait on you or fill the food shelves)

Dangermac

sniggings wrote: »

your right, you either try hard and hope for the best or you don't bother, I understand that but my crusade is to change peoples understanding of why some people see no point in working, I see them as facts not excuses, a family will almost always be better off on benefits, I know a couple of guys that both have more than 6 kids, the benefits and house they live in could never be paid for with a job, as they just be not have the skill set for a high paying job, but they are extremes as only around 3% of benefit claiments have more than 4 kids, but even 2-3 kids it is still not likely most will be able to get a job paying enough to support the family, people see and understand that, so it's not a question of working hard and you will do better, they are doing what best for them in the situation, which is providing the most they can for the family, telling them they will feel better about themselves has never worked and never will, make work pay and not as Nick Clegg says around £40 better off, work needs to really pay or we will never fix the problem, those are facts no opinion, you can either accept them and try and change the situation or carry on spouting those on benefits need to work harder (lets hope not too many of them succeed or you will have no one to serve you your Costa, wait on you or fill the food shelves)

I agree, but I think that there will always be situations where circumstances dictate that the benefits income is more advantageous than working.

There will never be a perfect solution, unless we chop the benefits system altogether, in which case it would always be better to work. For the record, I am absolutely not advocating this.

What I do have an issue with is where some people dont see any benefit of working, because they want instant top earnings.

I always believe that hard work and perseverance (along with some good decisions and a little luck) will always win in the end.

But I do accept that there will always be people who want to do well, who will never achieve it, because of circumstances beyond their control.

Life isnt fair.

DM

FATBALLZ

I agree with your sentiments OP, is it any wonder we have massive youth unemployment when to get a job at the !!!!!-end of the job market you need to fill in dozens of stupid questions like the one you mentioned. I've been turned down in a supermarket before for picking the wrong answer, I made the mistake of saying "I would do (b), but also I'd do ...blah blah". Apparently (b) was the wrong answer and independent thought is not allowed so I failed the interview. The fact I could do the job standing on my head was not relevant either.

This sort of crap is what makes so many people unemployable, you can't just turn up and do the job any more, you have to pass some arbitrary psychological screening and many people just don't have the wherewithal to do that, it's all very well older people calling youngsters lazy and idle because they can't get jobs, but when you're made to feel like a failure because you can't see through the psycho-babble tests to pick the answer that probably makes no sense but is the one the company wants, what do we expect.

In these sort of jobs a quick chat and then if all is well a trial period (which everyone in every job has anyway) should be all that is required.