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EDF direct debit manipulation
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As it happens I have this minute received a response from Scottish Power to a request I made yesterday. The request was to explain a significant change upwards in my DD.
I think it is a perfect example of a simple 'calculation'
The breakdown of your forecasted energy over the next 12 months is as follows:
Current Service Package: Online Online Fixed Saver November 2012 (Version A)
Electricity 900 kWh x Unit price 20.986p £188.87
Electricity 2650 kWh x Unit price 10.381p £275.10
Discounts £21.06
VAT £22.04
Total £464.95
Gas 2680 kWh x Unit price 7.139p £191.33
Gas 39200 kWh x Unit price 3.164p £1,240.29
Discounts £10.02
VAT £70.88
Total £1,492.47
Total Electricity and Gas Charges £1,957.42
Current Debit Balance £29.25
Total Cost £1,986.67
Dividing this total by 12 months shows your Direct Debit should be set at £165.56.
Your Direct Debit has been set to £166.00 per month to reflect the above calculations. This amount will begin being deducted from your bank from 3 January 2013. '
If SP can do this within a day and probably less why have EDF made such an issue of it? In fact, they refuse to tell you.
Well done SP. :T
p.s.they have quoted the wrong product but the rates used are correct. So not quite perfect....:rotfl:
But what is it based on?
Where do they get 3550 kWh from (for electricity)?
or 41880 kWh for Gas?
(I added up in my head)
How does his relate to last year, last 5 years usage for that property and users?0 -
I think you are over complicating the issue. I have used DD's ever since they were invented for Utility Bills.Only recently has it become a problem.
What YOU (personally) did is irrelevant, what MOST people do is relevant...
Was this in arrears with a meter reading once a year or even 2?
DD is not the issue by itself, the issue is paying in arrears in estimated readings being the NORMAL way to pay (for most people).
DD allows them to bill what they want... borrow money from you and pay back later in order to ensure they borrow more interest free from you than they have to cover elsewhere.
People being happy with DD (as a majority) is what allowed them to not bother actually reading meters anymore... and just 'predicting' use.
What's actually complicated about paying for what you use a month after you use it?0 -
I remember some years ago Scottish Power also being able to explain to my satisfaction.
For the avoidance of doubt what is the provenance of the projected usage? Is it *exactly* your actual (or estimated) previous 12 months usage?
Would you like some energy efficiency advice?:D
The projected usage is totally reconcilable on electricity and is very much inline on gas with last year. That is understandable because our November consumption has been quite high.
I am satisfied that both figures are within any manageable error and to be honest I am not going to micro analyse it. Basically,their data response makes sense to me, however, it has allowed me to make that judgment.
As DD's are essentially a rounding exercise at the end of the year, then I personally am happy. Some of the examples seen simply don't add up even to the casual observer.
Re Energy Advice, I would welcome a solution which deals with a large mid 19th century property with huge sash windows and solid walls. (without changing character). We are actually very frugal and cold...:rotfl:but admit House improvements are not my strong suit.0 -
But what is it based on?
Where do they get 3550 kWh from (for electricity)?
or 41880 kWh for Gas?
(I added up in my head)
How does his relate to last year, last 5 years usage for that property and users?
I keep records and have data going back to 2005. I would say the current forecast is slightly below the historical average and makes sense because our two children have recently left home. (It was too cold....:D )0 -
What YOU (personally) did is irrelevant, what MOST people do is relevant...
Was this in arrears with a meter reading once a year or even 2?
DD is not the issue by itself, the issue is paying in arrears in estimated readings being the NORMAL way to pay (for most people).
DD allows them to bill what they want... borrow money from you and pay back later in order to ensure they borrow more interest free from you than they have to cover elsewhere.
People being happy with DD (as a majority) is what allowed them to not bother actually reading meters anymore... and just 'predicting' use.
What's actually complicated about paying for what you use a month after you use it?
I read around once a month but not religiously and with SP input that reading. For the EDF account I also control I give them a reading around every six months to avoid a nonsense figure for an elderly relative.
I can see your side point about DD's causing complacency with meter readings but I don't think it is a manipulation issue.
Nothing is complicated about paying a month after you use energy other than meter reading frequency. I don't use it because we are very seasonal with gas usage and i get a discount for monthly DD.It suits us and as I monitor it, I think I usually get a cash flow benefit to me.
P.s. Trying to get the thread back on track. I would say SP are fully compliant with the DD SLC's while EDF are way off.0 -
What YOU (personally) did is irrelevant, what MOST people do is relevant...
Was this in arrears with a meter reading once a year or even 2?
DD is not the issue by itself, the issue is paying in arrears in estimated readings being the NORMAL way to pay (for most people).
DD allows them to bill what they want... borrow money from you and pay back later in order to ensure they borrow more interest free from you than they have to cover elsewhere.
People being happy with DD (as a majority) is what allowed them to not bother actually reading meters anymore... and just 'predicting' use.
What's actually complicated about paying for what you use a month after you use it?
I don't believe most people are billed based on estimated readings. That appears to be a minority, although it is often the cause of unexpected bills or hikes in DD's.
Paying monthly by DD should by concept be a way for consumers to spread the cost of their energy usage evenly over the year. The scandal is the suppliers manipulating that to their favour.
A "PAYG" approach would be fine for those that can afford their winter bills and are happy to have smaller bills in the summer. It's not complicated and perhaps should be an option suppliers are forced to offer alongside the simplified tariffs they have now been told to show. I'm guessing there would be outcry if payment by monthly DD were abolished in the name of simplification.I’m a Forum Ambassador and I support the Forum Team on the In My Home MoneySaving, Energy and Techie Stuff boards. If you need any help on these boards, do let me know. Please note that Ambassadors are not moderators. Any posts you spot in breach of the Forum Rules should be reported via the report button, or by emailing forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com.
All views are my own and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.
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I keep records and have data going back to 2005. I would say the current forecast is slightly below the historical average and makes sense because our two children have recently left home. (It was too cold....:D )
Nope, what I meant is how did they calculate your predicted energy usage?
they have set out a lot of detail without actually saying HOW they determined your kWh.... requirements....
I appreciate you have your records, what I would expect is that they show how they 'guesstimated' your kWh requirements..... the rest of this is simple...
Obviously if they have used your last 5 years bills and simply added it up and divided by 5 that's one way.... but then they should say this....0 -
Nope, what I meant is how did they calculate your predicted energy usage?
they have set out a lot of detail without actually saying HOW they determined your kWh.... requirements....
I appreciate you have your records, what I would expect is that they show how they 'guesstimated' your kWh requirements..... the rest of this is simple...
Obviously if they have used your last 5 years bills and simply added it up and divided by 5 that's one way.... but then they should say this....
I haven't asked that but would have if the figures looked nonsense. I have done two tests based on last year and a seven year historical average. SP would not have the latter (Terry may well correct me).
The comfort for me, as I said a few posts back is that they haven't overcomplicated and given unnecessary weight to short term fluctuations. I can manage the inevitable variation around this figure.
My emphasis through all of this has been to seek the basic data for customers that helps them understand and make informed decisions about their DD payment levels. Sometimes, even I can be satisfied with an Energy Supplier's response.EDF haven't got close to first base.
There are other posters who are more interested in the precise algorithm that has been used. It appears to me that SP's is coughing up some reasonable figures so I have told them I am happy.
Furthermore,if it proves to be too high an assessment they do pay some interest back on the credit balance.0 -
I haven't asked that but would have if the figures looked nonsense. I have done two tests based on last year and a seven year historical average. SP would not have the latter (Terry may well correct me).
The comfort for me, as I said a few posts back is that they haven't overcomplicated and given unnecessary weight to short term fluctuations. I can manage the inevitable variation around this figure.
My emphasis through all of this has been to seek the basic data for customers that helps them understand and make informed decisions about their DD payment levels. Sometimes, even I can be satisfied with an Energy Supplier's response.EDF haven't got close to first base.
There are other posters who are more interested in the precise algorithm that has been used. It appears to me that SP's is coughing up some reasonable figures so I have told them I am happy.
Furthermore,if it proves to be too high an assessment they do pay some interest back on the credit balance.
Fair enough....
the reason it bothers me is because I only just moved and the house is horribly inefficient. I replaced a whole load of expensive 50W Halogens with low energy but I can do a lot to balance use...
I also just want to know HOW they calculate it.... its possibly just the way I'm wired.0 -
Just catching up.
Backfoot- I would be delighted to get from EDF something as clear and sensible as you have had from SP. It really should not be too hard for them should it?0
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