EDF direct debit manipulation

steve-L

WestonDave wrote: »

Steve - I appreciate what you are saying and didn't object to their initial "new customer" calculations precisely because I understand that they had nothing to go on. My problem at present is that I've been with them for 18 months and they are now predicting massively more consumption than I've demonstrated use of in the last 18 months. Similarly I (although others differ) don't object to a reasonable margin of error in their favour (as I'd rather be sure I'm paying it all than end up with a balance to pay), but 40% increase in predicted consumption is taking the proverbial! Obviously its in their interests to get as good a position for themselves as they can, but its also in my interests to stop that getting out of hand and when it does we will cross swords. If its systematic as a number of postings on here suggest then it should be a regulatory matter - whether its deliberate or just a serendipitous side effect of a malfunctioning computer system.

Beyond that if their obligations are to supply a calculation at least on request, they can flippin well do it - not least because they've used their "benefit of the doubt" goodwill up with other screw ups. The fact that a month after asking they still can't either work out how to do it or be bothered to do it speaks volumes for their attitude to their obligations and customer service.

Dave,
I'm totally with you.... my issue is that TRANSPARENCY needs to run across the WHOLE process (calculation).

Given the general lack of consumer focus by the regulator/watchdog (in real terms) I don't see the advantage (overall) of getting them to only provide the 'downstream' calculation from the estimated consumption on so long as this remains based on the last years actual OR ESTIMATED.

or as backfoot states
"So they have inflated the whole years gas consumption by a factor representing the increase over one month and ignored the previous 11 months. ? "
as jalexa said "the projected consumption "basis" is the previous 12 months actual or estimated consumption given (accurately) both on the statement and also on Mydata" but this is in their case. Is this 'universal' or do they pick and chose?

I find it hard to believe that (extreme case) someone moving into a brand new house with only electrical use by contractors would be given an estimate on the basis of the last 12 months.... but the same applies if a bit less to many people who have either moved or switched. Anyone moving into my mums house would receive a surprise if this were the case, my mum barely heats the house at all unless we visit with the nipper.

So there are a whole lot of people who don't have 12 months previous details...

My point being what jalexa got told might (or must be) be true for some and not for others.

Unless they state what their method for calculating the expected consumption is then them supplying information on half of the calculation will not really help overall and any 'victory' from those who have 12 months with the same supplier will be at the expense of those who do not. (Assuming they chose to pass the costs/lack of profit on to the consumer)

The other thing is unless they do this and supply their breakdown of how they predict consumption month by month then all consumers are unable to challenge.

Just a simple example is last year you set the thermostat at 21 and this year you set it at 17. Why should you accept the predicted use when you know it will be lower? Or you changed 1000W worth of old tungsten filament bulbs for Low Energy .... why should you accept the basis for the usage being based on last year? Consumers should be free to challenge the PREDICTED use as well.

backfoot

steve,

This may help.

http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Media/FactSheets/Documents1/direct_debit_leaflet_oct_2012_WEB.pdf



You haven't said if you have argued your case with your Supplier ?

jalexa

backfoot wrote: »

This may help.

http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Media/FactSheets/Documents1/directdebitleaflet.pdf

Tut, tut, you have linked to the November 2011 document not the October 2012 revision you have previously highlighted. Does that imply both are up on the Ofgem website? Does Ofgem know what it is doing? Might be a leading question that.

I only noticed because the Edf 'automatic refund at annual review' is "£150" in the November 2011 document but "£150 per fuel":eek: in the October 2012 revision.

snowcat53

I have now looked at the bills just generated on my account and my mother's

My mother ended her 12 month period from starting the Fix 2012 tariff in credit by £183, but this does include the warm home discount payment in this period. However it blows out of the water EDF's claim the DD needed to increase by 42%. I still await their calculation/response to my complaint. .

I ended my 12 m period £93 in credit (includes 75 EO award) . EDF had also increased my DD by 24% for one month- again clearly not needed

Of note is

1. they have automatically rebated the credit balance of 184, so credit where it is due (literally). In fact as there is a single balance they cannot do it 'per fuel' now so the info in Ofgem leaflet looks out of date.

2. There is NO new DD notification in either bill!

3. The estimated usage for the next 12m is exactly the same as last 12m

EDIT -
4. Nowhere does it state this is the 'annual review' or if not when that might be.

backfoot

I have now received EDF's response to the Energy Ombudsman's ruling that they should provide me their explanation of the February DD change.

' On the 6 February 2012, we reassessed Mr. X's dual fuel monthly payments and changed the, to £71.00. Mr.X's electricity use between 8 August 2011 and 3 Februrary 2012 was £187.19 including VAT, which is approximately £30 per month. His gas usage between 8 August 2011 and 3 February 2012 was £246.87 including VAT which is approximately £40 per month. The payments were set at £71.00 per month to cover the outstanding balance of £13.93 and Mr. x's future use.'

Executive Liaison
Energy Sourcing and Customer Supply.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::D

snowcat53

Back of an envelope job then.
And based on 6 months, mostly winter.
For comparison what is your self-calculated annualised DD figure?.

(Do you want to edit out your surname btw?)

jalexa

snowcat53 wrote: »

And based on 6 months, mostly winter.

I'm not sure that is fair. The industry 'Standard' profile (for gas) allocates 50.7% of consumption from August to January inclusive.

When was the next 'annual review' date?

Assuming the data is accurate, on the face of it a costly way for Edf to be forced to explain a non-controversial calculation result, though I agree with the "back of an envelope" comment.

backfoot

jalexa wrote: »

I'm not sure that is fair. The industry 'Standard' profile (for gas) allocates 50.7% of consumption from August to January inclusive.

When was the next 'annual review' date?

Assuming the "facts" are accurate, on the face of it a costly way for Edf to be forced explain a non-controversial calculation, though I agree with the "back of an envelope" comment.

What is the source of the 'standard profile' ? Link please.

Annual review date should be 8th August.

The explanation, if believed, implies a simple average over the period which is used to derive a new figure. They have just made it up to fit the answer. :rotfl:

How would this work as an IT process across the range of customers?

jalexa

backfoot wrote: »

What is the source of the 'standard profile' ? Link please.

If you search the OVO website you will easily find the table. I have previously confirmed it on a more official website guided by Terry but it's not immediately to hand.

OVO edit: http://www.ovoenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Understanding_the_link_between_your_Direct_Debit_and_energy_consumption.pdf

The electricity profile is called "Class 1". Lots of info available on the Elexon website. Trying hard to remember who settles gas. Where has Terry gone?

OK, remembered now, Xoserve is the equivalent for gas.

victor2

jalexa wrote: »

I'm not sure that is fair. The industry 'Standard' profile (for gas) allocates 50.7% of consumption from August to January inclusive.

backfoot wrote: »

Annual review date should be 8th August.

The explanation, if believed, implies a simple average over the period which is used to derive a new figure. They have just made it up to fit the answer. :rotfl:

How would this work as an IT process across the range of customers?

I have checked my own actual gas usage (CH, HW and cooker hob) for the same dates and between 8 Aug 2011 and 3 Feb 2012, I used 53.6% of the total gas I used from 8 Aug 11 to 8 Aug 12. Surprised me a bit as I was expecting it to be higher. The days worked out at 48.9% of the total BTW

The simple average over the period does appear to have provided the calculation to fit the answer.
The entire system seems to have been specified on the back of an envelope however.