904/316 Liner Vs 316/316 Liner?

Greenfires

I get the impression that when you ask a question, you've already decided what the answer should be. You keep pointing out that nothing to do with chimneys, stove installations or anything else is rocket science, which kind of leads me to wonder why you're not in the business yourself and making what you consider to be an extortionate amount of money from a job that anyone could do just by having a quick look at google?
Compliance with CE regulations means very little - there are some truly awful products on the market which comply. It doesn't mean that any product which complies is of the same standard - and I'm sure you don't really need me to explain this to you. There could well be a world of difference between the bargain 316 liner you found on ebay, and the 316 liner the installer would have used. Several flue manufacturers don't even sell to the public.
Yes there are some HETAS fitters who will try it on - I think you'll find that this is by no means something that HETAS have a monopoly on - it happens in all trades and all walks of life. There are also an awful lot of extremely good fitters out there - I'm acquainted with several of them.

A._Badger

Greenfires wrote: »

Yes there are some HETAS fitters who will try it on - I think you'll find that this is by no means something that HETAS have a monopoly on - it happens in all trades and all walks of life. There are also an awful lot of extremely good fitters out there - I'm acquainted with several of them.

Well, yes. But HETAS is in a rare and happy (for itself) position, because it enjoys a very privileged legal status which, for example, garages (which also perform 'life or death' work) do not share.

Some of the stories about HETAS members that have appeared on this forum, and some of the reports of the reaction from this organisation, have suggested that all is far from well in the way it operates.

Moreover, it seems completely wrong that it is allowed to create regulations, like the ludicrous 5KW air brick rule, which takes absolutely no account of room volume or airflow.

Personally, I am opposed to almost all monopolies because they result in a conspiracy against the customer.

My own experience of HETAS registered installers leads me to conclude that the stove business is riddled with opportunism, mythology and pseudo-science - most of which, by some strange coincidence, seems to result in customers being forced to spend more money.

Greenfires

In many ways I'd agree with you Badger. I wouldn't say I'm a fan of theirs by any means - my last contact with them whilst trying to get some help for an elderly lady who to my mind was being taken for a proper ride by a large company here in the north west - was a complete waste of time. "We can't comment on individual business practices" Not even when the job has been done wrong, and the company now want paying again to do it wrong a second time???

There's far too much greed in this world, and if we all tried a bit harder to be decent to each other, I'm sure it would be a happier place. Obviously I have to make a living from my work - but I put as much effort into helping my customers to run their stoves etc as efficiently as they can and save some money and fuel, as I do into doing a good job for them. Some of the stories I hear though - I wonder how these people sleep at night, 'cos I wouldn't!

hethmar

PaulF81 wrote: »

out of interest, how would you rate that company i listed above?

i hate topoint out, but its not exactly rocket science, especially with extensive regs to follow. as for costings, all those points affect plumbers, plasterers and electricians. why then do hetas have carte blanche to chargeequivalent day rates that are nothing short of extortionate?

and why dont hetas allow repairs if that was the most practical and cost effective solution for the client? hetas trade unionism perhaps?

can you explain the difference between one flue manufacturer who confirms compliance with charter mark/rlecant british standards? can i ask why i was quoted twice the price for exactly the same flue by hetas installers when compared to online exactly the same products?

I think your queries have already been answered by Greenfires and absolutely, I agree, its not rocket science and you can follow instructions carefully.

However, pulling a tooth out isnt rocket science either but what if there is complications? Whilst on paper a lot of jobs seem pretty simple, its when you come to actually do them that things become a lot more complicated.

We could buy the materials much cheaper from on line firms - but in one desperate case when just before xmas (everyone has to have their fires in by xmas!) we were forced to order from one as our usual supplier had run out, the liner arrived, leafed all the way internally and damaged externally. This firm were keen to have our account yet this was the best they could do, supply duff material which we refused to use even if it meant we had to upset the customer by not getting the job done in time. (in fact, the day was saved when our usual supplier brought materials up from the other end of the country for us). And would a diyer have noticed all the leafing and faults in the liner?

If you have a nice straight flueway, no bricks fallen, no mortar cracked, lead work in place, opening suitable, no sharp bends, neighbour not complaining that the bricks in their flue are dropping because of your workmanship, you dont get electric wiring potentially touching your scaffolding, have to apply for council dispensation for your vans, etc. etc. etc. then I dont doubt a competent diyer could do the job well However, very few of our jobs seem to be that straight forward - mind you, we get called out after diyers get stuck or indeed, cowboy firms just walk away from the job when it isnt a nice easy one.

Also, we arent the HETAS organisation, its something we have to conform to and pay subs to - we dont actually operate the system! OH was training a young chap recently, he had passed his HETAS exams with flying colours, the guy couldnt even mix cement properly and had no idea how to handle problems like clay liners collapsing or the opening area being too small for the client's new stove. So please dont think all installers worship at the hearth of HETAS, its just something that we have to belong to.


PS Greenfires, we had a similar scenario with elderly couple who contacted us about a duff installation and HETAS seemed to ignore - we produced a report for them and called in Environment dept from council (health issue) and involved trading standards. In that particular case, the installer was thrown out of HETAS BUT only apparently for one year, when he can apply for reinstatement - ridiculous. The previous year we inspected a thatched house where the same guy had put in a 90 degree bend!

PaulF81

Thanks for the replies; I am in agreement with badger, I am a competent DIYer (I know you probably meet a few who think that also!) and completed my own regs compliant install (bar the air brick, which I thought pointless as the suspended floor is as leaky as hell, as are the windows and putting yet another hole in the wall to allow yet more drafts in was one reg too much). What I object to is the over regulation in this area, if it was a difficult install, I probably would have paid, fortunately it wasnt.

Lots of vitriol on other trade sites though about not getting the man from the council round and doing my own install. As I pointed out, if a buyer in future doesnt like it, I will simply rip it all out and leave them with an open fireplace if that suits them better.

Greenfires

Paul - I seem to remember reading some of your posts a while back and as far as I can recall, it sounded like you knew your way round the building regs then. Whilst I do sometimes think you're having a bit of a wind up with some of us, I'm sure your own DIY install is well up to scratch - even if it's not been signed off. That doesn't mean of course that it's a job for everyone - I'm sure muckybutt and hethmar and so on will have seen as many frightening DIY jobs as I have - including some of course by so called HETAS pros.

Personally - I always tell customers who ask, that they don't HAVE to have a liner in all cases, and they don't HAVE to have a HETAS bloke round to fit it - but that a liner may well improve things and avoid problems later, and that having it done may be easier for many than doing it themselves.

hethmar

When we get people who insist on diying it, OH is more than happy to advise over the phone - one essential though is to ensure you have a sealed carbon monoxide monitor.

alleycat`

hethmar wrote: »

When we get people who insist on diying it, OH is more than happy to advise over the phone - one essential though is to ensure you have a sealed carbon monoxide monitor.

I do have a question about this.
Why does it have to be sealed.

I have a couple in the house, one is "sealed" for sign off the others are not.
Apart from the ability to replace the batteries in the others there is no discernible difference in the way they operate.

Since they all work in the same way and they all have a "replace by date" on them what difference does it make?

hethmar

Well, I believe its so that the monitor remains in use for the 7 or 10 years life - rather than someone being able to remove the batteries and then you would have no warning.

Lots of fires/smoke deaths in papers often report "there was an alarm but the batteries had been removed". I assume the sealed unit is approved to avoid this possibility.

alleycat`

Sort of get that but my suspicion is that a sealed unit won't last 7 years "battery wise" and it is a bit of a scam.

I'll admit I'm a cynic in regards to the justifications of industry and things like this

Anyway, they are missing a trick as they could insist on a mains powered unit, with a battery backup

Fair enough, and thanks for the answer.