904/316 Liner Vs 316/316 Liner?

crankup

Ive been reading stacks of threads on woodburner/multifuel burner installations. Fantastic information, great debates, some people are very knowledgeable and helpful on this subject which has been great.

Ive started getting quotes and visiting sellers. Some have suggested the 316/316 liner. As I intend to go the multifuel burner route I have asked for a price update so I can have a 904/316 liner. I thought that might be better for the better resistance to corrosion. No problem. Then I got thinking, Can I visually tell the difference between a 316/316 and a 904/316? How would I know I had the better liner after its been pushed in the chimney?

Is it possible to tell the difference? Does a 20yr guarantee on a liner *really* have any value?
Thanks.

PaulF81

We went 904/904. If you can find a HETAS installer who will fit a supplied flu, get it from online.
http://www.fluesupplies.com/

http://www.fluesupplies.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_32&products_id=403
Visually, no difference. Price difference vs flue life? Very little extra when you look. If HETAS refuse to fit a supplied flue, don't forget to check the above site to see how much they are robbing you for materials.

Do you actually need a flue? A brick flue in good nick is just as good as a lined one and completely within building regs.

Greenfires

There's liner and liner. Which may be worth considering before assuming the installer is robbing you! Mate of mine is an installer and uses top quality liner because he's been in the business long enough to know that there's a huge difference between good stuff and cheap stuff. If he fits bargain basement stuff, the job comes back to bite him later, because it's "always" the installers fault - not the fault of the customer wanting a job done on the cheap!

suisidevw

Paul, I think many would argue that a brick flue in good nick compared to a liner is still of less 'value' in terms of performance.

We fitted 316/316 liner, we only plan to be in the house for a few more years, and therefore the 10 year guarantee on it with annual sweeping etc should suffice, it was also extremely reasonable.

PaulF81

suisidevw wrote: »

Paul, I think many would argue that a brick flue in good nick compared to a liner is still of less 'value' in terms of performance.

We fitted 316/316 liner, we only plan to be in the house for a few more years, and therefore the 10 year guarantee on it with annual sweeping etc should suffice, it was also extremely reasonable.

I believe that to be nonsense.it dends on how big the flue is, you will still gt the same flow at the bottom as you do,at the top, it's simple engineering. It may take slightly longer to warm up, but we have roughly the same flow through the lined flue as we did through a narrow brick flue, which had an excellent draw anyway.

A lot of crud is spouts by HETAS regarding quality of flues and the efficiency of brick liners as these are two of the ways thy make more money! In lots of examples (not all) it's a big con.

My local experience of a number of hetas installers was not positive. It says a lot when people are still refusing to install when you don't want any installer guarantee with the flue.

Most of the profit is made I feel through MIS quoting materials, I ended up doing it diy as it was a relatively straightforward job and wasn't keen on paying someone a day rate of 800 quid. Their loss.

crankup

Ive been asking around various people I can find who have had them fitted in the last year or so. They have varying experiences from good to bad to entertaining. There's quite a few in the area doing them now - it reminds me of the Double Glazing firms and their varying professionalism. Some have consistently high standards and great value, some do not. I've spent a long while saving up to treat us to this wood/multifuel burner so I want my moneys worth.Thanks for all the replies - seems as though I need to do some homework on Flue brands. Good ones? Ones to avoid?
Thanks again to you all. Buttons clicked.

suisidevw

Agree about the quoting to fit. I provided all the gear and had it signed off for approx £400.

Local authority Building Control wanted £165 plus a pressure test completed by a registered sweep, another £120 before signing it off. I feel the £120 it's cost me to have someone dicing with death on my roof is worth it! It took 2 people 4 hours BTW.

alleycat`

crankup wrote: »

Ive been asking around various people I can find who have had them fitted in the last year or so. They have varying experiences from good to bad to entertaining. There's quite a few in the area doing them now - it reminds me of the Double Glazing firms and their varying professionalism. Some have consistently high standards and great value, some do not. I've spent a long while saving up to treat us to this wood/multifuel burner so I want my moneys worth.Thanks for all the replies - seems as though I need to do some homework on Flue brands. Good ones? Ones to avoid?
Thanks again to you all. Buttons clicked.

Can't personally vouch for the quality but i know a couple of installers that use specflue.

At least one of them also offers sweeping services so, assuming he is going back year after year, the last thing he'd want is a premature liner failure.

hethmar

We use 904/904 - with a 25 year warranty. We take 2 days to do the job, not 4 hours which a lot of new "liner firms" seem to manage (doing basically a diy job with pot hangers and no insulation etc. - we are replacing so many duff jobs this year its incredible and we do REPLACE, HETAS doesnt allow repairs, so bear that in mind when you are looking at pricing). Having been in business 30 years we have seen literally dozens of installers start up and then disappear when complaints start.

It depends on whether you will be using just wood - and yes, despite having the same name of grade, some materials are just not the quality we use even though we could buy a lot cheaper we dont.

If you intend to use a lot of solid fuel the rigid 316 (not flex) may be a better bet.

And yes, there are cowboys out there, particularly in the last 5 years or so, we have noticed a huge increase in duff work. But a decent firm may seem to be expensive compared with diy, but remember a good firm uses only the best materials, not the sort most diyers buy and they spend a couple of days doing the job properly, not just bunging it down and walking away, never to be seen again when you get problems.

Factor in, travel time, vehicle maintenance, fuel, huge insurance premiums for people working on rooftops, safety gear, storage unit costs, accountants, phones, not to mention subs to various required organisations, holiday and sick pay and of course all the materials - then you realise the profits arent that fantastic for risking your life in all weathers.

muckybutt

hethmar wrote: »

Factor in, travel time, vehicle maintenance, fuel, huge insurance premiums for people working on rooftops, safety gear, storage unit costs, accountants, phones, not to mention subs to various required organisations, holiday and sick pay and of course all the materials - then you realise the profits arent that fantastic for risking your life in all weathers.

:T:T well said

PaulF81

hethmar wrote: »

We use 904/904 - with a 25 year warranty. We take 2 days to do the job, not 4 hours which a lot of new "liner firms" seem to manage (doing basically a diy job with pot hangers and no insulation etc. - we are replacing so many duff jobs this year its incredible and we do REPLACE, HETAS doesnt allow repairs, so bear that in mind when you are looking at pricing). Having been in business 30 years we have seen literally dozens of installers start up and then disappear when complaints start.

It depends on whether you will be using just wood - and yes, despite having the same name of grade, some materials are just not the quality we use even though we could buy a lot cheaper we dont.

If you intend to use a lot of solid fuel the rigid 316 (not flex) may be a better bet.

And yes, there are cowboys out there, particularly in the last 5 years or so, we have noticed a huge increase in duff work. But a decent firm may seem to be expensive compared with diy, but remember a good firm uses only the best materials, not the sort most diyers buy and they spend a couple of days doing the job properly, not just bunging it down and walking away, never to be seen again when you get problems.

Factor in, travel time, vehicle maintenance, fuel, huge insurance premiums for people working on rooftops, safety gear, storage unit costs, accountants, phones, not to mention subs to various required organisations, holiday and sick pay and of course all the materials - then you realise the profits arent that fantastic for risking your life in all weathers.

out of interest, how would you rate that company i listed above?

i hate topoint out, but its not exactly rocket science, especially with extensive regs to follow. as for costings, all those points affect plumbers, plasterers and electricians. why then do hetas have carte blanche to chargeequivalent day rates that are nothing short of extortionate?

and why dont hetas allow repairs if that was the most practical and cost effective solution for the client? hetas trade unionism perhaps?

can you explain the difference between one flue manufacturer who confirms compliance with charter mark/rlecant british standards? can i ask why i was quoted twice the price for exactly the same flue by hetas installers when compared to online exactly the same products?