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Warning: npower accept new customers without sending them a Contract
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25.6_Pre-contract_oblig
Posts: 190 Forumite
Edit at 12 April 2013 - This issue has become quite a long saga.
Summary of this thread
npower are introducing a new computer system.
This system is "not fit for purpose".
The first issue that came to light was that it could not issue Contracts.
npower knew this in September 2012.
Instead of stopping to fix the system, the system was used more widely and many more Companies and Customers were impacted.
First 'switching sites', later losing data, issues with Accounts, Billing and DDs.
Posts #1 to #5 outline the primary evidence for the first issue.
Post #6: Questions to npower. npower never answered these questions or denied the points.
In particular, they did not correct the fact that, when on 01-Nov-2012 I was
told "the Regulator was aware", this was NOT TRUE.
Post #7: Questions to the Regulator, Ofgem.
Ofgem have answered these questions in Post #134.
IMHO Post #134 is the most important post in the thread.
Post #8: Questions to Other Energy Supply Companies and Questions addressed to all readers
Then, Posts #9 to #19 we have the initial discussion.
Here, some experienced posters helpfully warn me that the road ahead is likely to be long and difficult.
Post #14 the first confirmation.
Post #20 my thanks to GemBlueTopaz1984, who confirmed that this is a Systemic Issue and state my opinion as to what should be done.
Pages 2 and 3 (Posts #21 to #60) are about Contracts (and about why npower are not denying the allegations).
Post #62 Terrylw1 (a very knowledgeable poster), on 15-11-2012, said:
"That's very interesting if their new SAP system can't issue contracts.
That would definitely be a systemic issue and needs Ofgem to investigate. ..."
Post #63 "Adam at npower"'s first post in this thread.
Post #64 I reply to "Adam at npower".
In this reply there is a link to the
The SAP anti competition argument thread (to Post #6 of that thread).
On 20 November 2012 "Adam at npower" escalated my Complaint two levels.
By 23 November 2012 I receive documents in the post.
See Post #72 #73 and #74, where I conclude that the issues are more serious than I thought at the beginning.
Post #86 some early indications of the issues affecting switching sites.
See also, Posts #96 to #100 (and others - later).
In Post #104 we have very clear evidence from other threads of switching sites are now involved. I start to make links to other threads - to keep the evidence together.
Post #91 an early report of failure to calculate DD correctly, SLC 27.14. See also Post #94.
Both these issues become clearer in later posts.
Post #102 Consumer Focus are aware.
Post #106 Issues at The Energy Shop
Link to their blog, this is updated 4 times over the next few weeks.
The Energy Shop try to inform their Customers - by giving accurate information.
Post #109 The Iceberg metaphor: it is not clear how many Customers, 'switching sites' and other Suppliers have been caught up in this entirely preventable mess.
Also, links to npower's previous issues: including Gas Sculpting.
Post #125 The first Contract arrives! However, there are still issues with DD (see also #127).
Post #128 Timeline - npower's 'new system' and SAP
Post #129 17-12-2012 Update: Ofgem are aware of this issue and this thread.
I start two threads, linked here, to allow people to comment to Ofgem about other issues.
Post #134. Freedom of Information Act request - Ofgem answer questions in Post #7
From Page 8 (Post #141) onwards, many more links to many more issues.
Post 145 evidence of a "backlog team". Also strange data error: Bradfield has experienced (npower)
"changed the name of the account holder".
Post #153 by TheSilentOne, is IMHO a very important post - valuable insight.
Here we see that some people at npower have been fully aware of the shortcomings of the 'new system' and yet those with the power and responsibility have not listened.
Post #155 includes links to two threads where npower are losing existing Customer's data e.g. DD was OK but then stopped (around August / September 2012).
Post #158 Seven weeks to answer query.
From Page 9 (Post #161) 30-01-2013. Many more linked threads and issues.
Including waiting for refunds since September 2012, lost data etc.
Post #168 Another serious issue:
"... It seems that this 'new system' is making yet another mistake. For an unknown number of customers accounts the Direct debit is not only taking out the monthly amount as normal but also taking out the full balance on the account. ..."
See also Post #181 where there is a reported case of this.
Post #179 I receive my Contract (outstanding since 17 August 2012).
I also thank people who have helped.
Page 10 Post #181 ff, many more issues. Most concerning is loss of data.
Post #183 More lost data, also npower not following npower's own "Guaranteed Standards" (see Posts to #188).
Post #189 undaunted questions if anything has changed in recent years.
Post #190 Ofgem: formal Investigations and 'less public interventions'.
Post #202 Many more issues, links to other threads - Page 11.
Reflections - Questions and Answers - in 3 Posts:
Post #205, #206 and #207.
End of Edit on 12 April 2013 (added more links on 01 June 2013).
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Short version:
Mid August 2012 - I phoned npower to switch to them for both Gas and Electricity.
Mid September 2012 - after one month I had not received any documents.
I phoned and asked for my Contract. I was promised it would be sent again.
To date, I have still not received my Contract.
IMHO npower are in breach of the spirit and the letter of the law by accepting new customers but NOT supplying them with a Contract.
I am posting here because other readers might like to know about this.
Other Companies that Supply Energy may also wish to know this.
In the next post I will supply more facts and ask specific questions.
Summary of this thread
npower are introducing a new computer system.
This system is "not fit for purpose".
The first issue that came to light was that it could not issue Contracts.
npower knew this in September 2012.
Instead of stopping to fix the system, the system was used more widely and many more Companies and Customers were impacted.
First 'switching sites', later losing data, issues with Accounts, Billing and DDs.
Posts #1 to #5 outline the primary evidence for the first issue.
Post #6: Questions to npower. npower never answered these questions or denied the points.
In particular, they did not correct the fact that, when on 01-Nov-2012 I was
told "the Regulator was aware", this was NOT TRUE.
Post #7: Questions to the Regulator, Ofgem.
Ofgem have answered these questions in Post #134.
IMHO Post #134 is the most important post in the thread.
Post #8: Questions to Other Energy Supply Companies and Questions addressed to all readers
Then, Posts #9 to #19 we have the initial discussion.
Here, some experienced posters helpfully warn me that the road ahead is likely to be long and difficult.
Post #14 the first confirmation.
Post #20 my thanks to GemBlueTopaz1984, who confirmed that this is a Systemic Issue and state my opinion as to what should be done.
Pages 2 and 3 (Posts #21 to #60) are about Contracts (and about why npower are not denying the allegations).
Post #62 Terrylw1 (a very knowledgeable poster), on 15-11-2012, said:
"That's very interesting if their new SAP system can't issue contracts.
That would definitely be a systemic issue and needs Ofgem to investigate. ..."
Post #63 "Adam at npower"'s first post in this thread.
Post #64 I reply to "Adam at npower".
In this reply there is a link to the
The SAP anti competition argument thread (to Post #6 of that thread).
On 20 November 2012 "Adam at npower" escalated my Complaint two levels.
By 23 November 2012 I receive documents in the post.
See Post #72 #73 and #74, where I conclude that the issues are more serious than I thought at the beginning.
Post #86 some early indications of the issues affecting switching sites.
See also, Posts #96 to #100 (and others - later).
In Post #104 we have very clear evidence from other threads of switching sites are now involved. I start to make links to other threads - to keep the evidence together.
Post #91 an early report of failure to calculate DD correctly, SLC 27.14. See also Post #94.
Both these issues become clearer in later posts.
Post #102 Consumer Focus are aware.
Post #106 Issues at The Energy Shop
Link to their blog, this is updated 4 times over the next few weeks.
The Energy Shop try to inform their Customers - by giving accurate information.
Post #109 The Iceberg metaphor: it is not clear how many Customers, 'switching sites' and other Suppliers have been caught up in this entirely preventable mess.
Also, links to npower's previous issues: including Gas Sculpting.
Post #125 The first Contract arrives! However, there are still issues with DD (see also #127).
Post #128 Timeline - npower's 'new system' and SAP
Post #129 17-12-2012 Update: Ofgem are aware of this issue and this thread.
I start two threads, linked here, to allow people to comment to Ofgem about other issues.
Post #134. Freedom of Information Act request - Ofgem answer questions in Post #7
From Page 8 (Post #141) onwards, many more links to many more issues.
Post 145 evidence of a "backlog team". Also strange data error: Bradfield has experienced (npower)
"changed the name of the account holder".
Post #153 by TheSilentOne, is IMHO a very important post - valuable insight.
Here we see that some people at npower have been fully aware of the shortcomings of the 'new system' and yet those with the power and responsibility have not listened.
Post #155 includes links to two threads where npower are losing existing Customer's data e.g. DD was OK but then stopped (around August / September 2012).
Post #158 Seven weeks to answer query.
From Page 9 (Post #161) 30-01-2013. Many more linked threads and issues.
Including waiting for refunds since September 2012, lost data etc.
Post #168 Another serious issue:
"... It seems that this 'new system' is making yet another mistake. For an unknown number of customers accounts the Direct debit is not only taking out the monthly amount as normal but also taking out the full balance on the account. ..."
See also Post #181 where there is a reported case of this.
Post #179 I receive my Contract (outstanding since 17 August 2012).
I also thank people who have helped.
Page 10 Post #181 ff, many more issues. Most concerning is loss of data.
Post #183 More lost data, also npower not following npower's own "Guaranteed Standards" (see Posts to #188).
Post #189 undaunted questions if anything has changed in recent years.
Post #190 Ofgem: formal Investigations and 'less public interventions'.
Post #202 Many more issues, links to other threads - Page 11.
Reflections - Questions and Answers - in 3 Posts:
Post #205, #206 and #207.
End of Edit on 12 April 2013 (added more links on 01 June 2013).
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Short version:
Mid August 2012 - I phoned npower to switch to them for both Gas and Electricity.
Mid September 2012 - after one month I had not received any documents.
I phoned and asked for my Contract. I was promised it would be sent again.
To date, I have still not received my Contract.
- I have phoned 9 times since my initial call in August.
- I have spent more than 5 hours on the phone to npower since my initial call in August.
- I now have an official Complaint Number.
- I have been told I am not the only new customer who has been accepted by npower but who has not been sent a Contract.
- I have been told that the Regulator is aware of this issue.
IMHO npower are in breach of the spirit and the letter of the law by accepting new customers but NOT supplying them with a Contract.
I am posting here because other readers might like to know about this.
Other Companies that Supply Energy may also wish to know this.
In the next post I will supply more facts and ask specific questions.
0
Comments
-
I realise that the first post in this thread might be read as incredible or libellous
so I feel it is best to provide some additional information.
Below the facts there are some specific questions.
My npower Complaint Number is 99175382. Anybody who has access to npower's
Customer Service System will be able to verify:
A. the factual statements I am making in this thread have already been communicated to npower and
B. most of the opinions that I am making in this thread have also been communicated to npower on the telephone.
In the year to August 2012 my previous Supplier raised their Gas Standing Charge.
As I use a very small amount of Gas I thought I could save money if I switched
to a Tariff that had NO Standing Charge (but a higher Unit Cost).
I wanted to continue to receive Electricity from Renewable sources.
I did some research and then I phoned npower.
On 17/08/2012
I gave npower my
Annual Electricity Consumption as 2,854kWh and my
Annual Gas Consumption as 64kWh (as I said - my Gas consumption is low).
Using these figures I received a verbal Quotation which would allow
me to switch to npower and pay about £20 less per month, by Direct Debit,
compared to my current Supplier's projected forward bill (and their monthly
Direct Debit).
The proposed monthly Direct Debit assumed that I would remain a
Customer of npower for at least a year and that I would receive the
£100 Annual Dual Fuel Discount.
continued ...
0 -
On 17/09/2012
One month later, I had still received NO communication of ANY sort from npower.
My existing supplier was writing to me (a sorry you are leaving letter).
I phoned npower to ask: "Where is my Contract? Is everything going ahead?" etc.
Mike was able to tell me my Account Number.
He was also able to tell me that the proposed Change of Supplier Day was 21/09/2012.
We speculated (both of us) that a possible explanation was that the "Welcome Pack"
(npower's term), which I should have received, had been lost in the post.
He said he would send the Contract again.
On 24/09/2012
I phoned npower. By this time I had now received 4 Letters (2 about Gas and
2 about Electricity: these were dated 11th (x2), 12th and 13th September 2012)
but NO Contract (and no "Welcome Pack").
This time I was told that npower had been having some issues with a
'new computer system' (I am using single quotes when I paraphrase, use slang etc
and I will use double quotes (") when I am making direct quotations from Documents
or from actual speech).
Jessica was very helpful and - after quite a lot of hunting - she found
a version of my "Welcome Pack" on a system. She arranged to print a copy
of this and send it to me. She also told me that if I did not give my
Meter Readings by 26/09/2012 I would be billed based on Estimated Readings
and she advised me to provide them. I was reluctant to provide my Readings
because I still had not received my Contract.
On 25/09/2012
I phoned npower to give my Meter Readings to Jak. I said this was "under protest"
because I still had not received my Contract but, on the other hand, I judged
it better to have my Meter Readings documented.
continued...0 -
On 28/09/2012
I phoned npower and spoke to Stuart. I phone because I had now received the
version of my "Welcome Pack" that Jessica had found. This strange Document,
which is dated "17th August 2012" and Postmarked "25.09.12" (none of my other
letters from npower are Postmarked: they just have a TNT Licence printed on the envelope),
includes the following:
So, it seems that npower, based on this misleading and INCORRECT document,"... Your estimated annual consumption is 2,854.00 kWh of electricity a year,
so we estimate your annual bill with {two spaces} is about £0.00. Based on
this consumption, we estimate that your electricity bill for your first year
with npower would be about £398.32.
You didn't ask us to give you an estimate for your gas, but by getting both ..."
'thinks' I am NOT getting Gas from npower! There is mention of the Rate I
will be paying for Electricity but there is NO MENTION of a Rate for Gas.
I can see why this Document was not sent (in August) - it is wrong. However,
I can NOT understand why I have STILL not been sent a valid and correct Contract.
I requested 3 things from Stuart (on behalf of npower).
1. A letter about my Gas: giving the details I should have received i.e. the
Rate I will be paying and any other Contract Terms (as I should have already received
in a 'normal Welcome Pack'). We agreed that someone, senior to Stuart, could use
a Word Processor and produce this Letter.
2. Change the bizarre capitalisation of the writing of my name.
3. As a proof that npower had fixed their system (when they had actually fixed it):
regenerate my "Welcome Pack", with the associated legal Contract, and send me a copy
for my records.
Stuart promised 1 and 2. He said he could not promise 3 but he did see the logic
of my request.
Stuart also agreed that, as I still had not received a Contract, I could 'switch back'
with no penalty. As I write, I have still not received a valid Contract and I
may have to change Supplier to one who is able to provide a Contract.
continued...0 -
On 01/10/2012
I phone because I had now received a letter from npower saying that they did not know
the Number of my Gas Meter! I had given this information on 17/08/2012 along with my
bank details etc. This call took so long I was promised a callback on 02/10/2012 (I had
an appointment to go to). Tracey did not phone me back on 02/10/2012.
On 02/10/2012
I phoned and spoke to Daniel. We confirmed that the Gas Meter Number that I gave npower
on 17/08/2012 was the correct Number. I was on various Databases (including a 'National
Database') with that Number and with 'npower as my Supplier of Gas'. I regard this as
a 'symptom that there IS something wrong with npower's new Computer System'. It fits
with the bizarre 'partial information' in the 'odd Welcome Pack' Document (quoted above)
where Gas is NOT being 'supplied to me by npower'.
On 03/10/2012
I phoned Tracey. We again confirmed that, according to all the computer systems that
Tracey wanted to refer to, npower WERE supplying my Gas as of 21/09/2012. I, of course,
explained again that I still had NOT received my Contract.
On 22/10/2012
I phoned npower to 'Officially Complain'. I spoke to Peter and received a verbal
note of my npower Complaint Number. I was also offered £25 off my bill, in part
compensation for the many phone calls I have had to make in order to inform npower
of the non-arrivial of my Contract. I have accepted the £25. In all of the
conversations I have had people, on behalf of npower, they have apologised and have
said that I should have received a Contract. I have now received my official Letter
that acknowledges that I have lodged a Complaint.
On 01/11/2012
I phoned npower to ask "WHEN am I going to receive my Contract? When am I going to
receive the Letter about my Gas that I was promised on 28/09/2012?" I spoke to
Stephen. We also discussed my wider concern: this issue is affecting, npower acknowledge,
more than just my self. I read to him the Para 25.6 (the "Pre-contract obligations" Para
from the "Standard conditions of gas supply licence" - which I will quote below in this thread).
He told me that "the Regulator was aware". I have been raising this wider point, consistently,
since late September.
Stephen has made another promise, on behalf of npower: I WILL get a Letter to document the
Gas Rate that I am paying, and it will also confirm that my Complaint has been escalated.
So far, since August 2012, I have spent more than 5 hours on the phone to npower.
I have also spent time researching the issues, checking that they have not been
reported previously, reading the Gas suppliers Licence: Standard Conditions,
composing an account for this forum.
From my point of view the main issues are not personal to me but are wider.
This is why I am making these public posts.
continued...
0 -
Questions
Next are a series of Questions. Some are addressed to specific Companies / Organisations.
I welcome all answers. In particular, if I have misunderstood the Regulations or the
'legally acceptable behaviour' please can you post to clarify these issues.
Can I suggest that you Quote the Question at the beginning of your Answer: this will aid all readers.
Questions to npower (begin Q-N-nn).
Questions to the Regulator, Ofgem, (begin Q-R-nn).
Questions to Other Energy Supply Companies (begin Q-OESC-nn).
Questions addressed to all readers (begin Q-nn).
Questions to npower
Q-N-01. When did you discover that you were accepting new Customers without providing them with a Contract - contrary to the "Pre-contract obligations", section (25.6) of the
"Standard conditions of gas supply licence"?
(Gas suppliers Licence: Standard Conditions - Consolidated to 28 August 2012)
Source:http :// www. ofgem. gov .uk /Licensing/ Work/ Pages/ licence-conditions-consolidated .aspx
http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Licensing/Work/Pages/licence-conditions-consolidated.aspx
Q-N-02. How many new Customers is npower supplying without providing them with a Contract as per Standard Condition 25.6?"Pre-contract obligations
25.6 Where the licensee or any Representative offers to enter into a Domestic Supply Contract with a Domestic Customer in the course of its Marketing Activities, the licensee or Representative must at the time it makes the offer and before entering into a Domestic Supply Contract with that Domestic Customer:
(a) provide to that Domestic Customer, in Writing or by means of electronic display, an estimate of the total annual Charges for the Supply of Gas which would be payable by that Domestic Customer under the Offered Domestic Supply Contract;
and ..."
Q-N-03. When did npower inform the Regulator that they were in breach of Standard Condition 25.6?
Q-N-04. On what basis, conditions or terms has the Regulator allowed npower to continue accepting new Customers in breach of Standard Condition 25.6?
Q-N-05. If a Customer informs npower that they have NOT received a Contract (for any potential reason e.g. it was lost in the Post): what is a reasonable number of days for a Customer to wait to receive a Contract?
continued...
0 -
Questions to the Regulator, Ofgem
Q-R-01. When did you discover that npower were accepting new Customers without
supplying them with a Contract - contrary to Standard Condition 25.6?
Q-R-02. When did npower inform you that they had accepted new Customers without
supplying them with a Contract - contrary to Standard Condition 25.6?
Q-R-03. On what basis, conditions or terms has Ofgem allowed npower to continue accepting
new Customers in breach of Standard Condition 25.6?
Q-R-04. Has the Regulator informed the other Companies that may be competing with npower for
Customers of these 'special arrangements' that npower have received that allow them to continue
to accept new Customers in breach of Standard Condition 25.6?
Q-R-05. If a Customer informs an Energy Supply Company that they have NOT received a Contract
(for any potential reason e.g. it was lost in the Post): what is a reasonable number of days for a
Customer to wait to receive the Contract?
Q-R-06. Is there a mechanism for a member of the general public to report an apparent
breach of the Regulations without waiting MANY MANY weeks? If so how? Do you agree that,
in a Regulated competitive market, these apparent breaches should be reported and assessed rapidly?
continued...0 -
Questions to Other Energy Supply Companies
Q-OESC-01. If you discovered that your system (people, processes and procedures together with
your computers) was unable to provide new Customers with a Contract - contrary to Standard
Condition 25.6, what would you do?
Q-OESC-02. If you discovered that your system (people, processes and procedures together with
your computers) was unable to provide new Customers with a Contract - contrary to Standard
Condition 25.6, when would you inform the Regulator?
Q-OESC-03. When did you discover that npower was accepting new Customers without
supplying them with a Contract - contrary to Standard Condition 25.6?
Q-OESC-04. When were you informed of the 'special arrangements' that npower have received that
allow them to continue to accept new Customers in breach of Standard Condition 25.6?
Questions addressed to all readers
Q-01. Is it acceptable that one Company can gain an advantage in the Supply of Energy
by neglecting to supply Contracts to new Customers - contrary to Standard Condition 25.6?
Q-02. What is the best way to inform the Regulator of apparent breaches of the Regulations?
Closing Remarks
I apologise for the long story - above. I do hope that soon npower will supply all their Customers with Contracts.
25.6_Pre-contract_oblig
0 -
Doesn't surprise me at all. Npower seem to believe themselves a law unto themselves.
The Regulator is about as useful to the Consumer as a chocolate fireguard when it comes to enforcing / resolving such issues.0 -
The answer is that they are supposed to comply with the SLC's.
The problem lies in the incredibly lax way in which they are enforced, if at all. Investigation tends to be triggered by pressure on Ofgem.
There are continual breaches seen in threads on this board and I think everyone should be bombarding Ofgem's Consumer Affairs Team until they get sick of us all!
There is no way for Ofgem to enforce any SLC unless they are actively monitoring them. This doesn't happen and never has. They seem to do sporadic audits. This is the opposite of the BSC licencing which is ongoing and yearly audits take place plus Technical Assurance Visits (TAV).
One good example if this, which to some on here may seem odd, is the gas safety inspection. Now, this is a good policy and its also easily checked. Or is it?
The gas Last Inspection Date (LID) is updated by the supplier based on their agent visits. Would it surprise anyone to hear that some supplier systems have been built incorrectly for years and have been updating this date based on internal account actions.
Ofgem could easily get the dates and ask for evidence and prove non compliance...its not rocket science...
OP - no regulator will comment or here and you will be lucky to get a supplier response, unless it was Eon as their reps are very helpful. I suggest you Google Ofgem Consumer Affairs Team and report it to them with your questions.:rotfl: It's better to live 1 year as a tiger than a lifetime as a worm...but then, whoever heard of a wormskin rug!!!:rotfl:0 -
Personally I cannot see what the fuss is about?
I switched from BG and Npower to SP in April, I never recieved a contract (although it is probably online for me to read) , I suppose it is deemed accepted as I pay the DD and the previous suppliers are not billing me.0
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