Warning: npower accept new customers without sending them a Contract

undaunted

25.6_Pre-contract_oblig wrote: »

undaunted, thanks for your response.

Having read the thread that you started "Npower versus the vulnerable? Court Challenge"
(I don't yet have 'link posting privileges'), and other threads, I can see how you have come to this opinion.


Indeed, this might also be true. The reason I am posting here is to try and alert the Regulator. I have not found an easy way to alert them to this very clear breach of the SLCs. Perhaps npower's Competitors will draw this to the attention of the Regulator. What I have found particularly shocking is that the official procedures seem to allow a Company to breach the regulations for many weeks - hence my Question to Ofgem:


25.6_Pre-contract_oblig

As I understand it, in theory they may refer you to Consumer Focus Extra Help unit and they may inform the regulator of any issues.

Unfortunately, they can apparently just fob you off by saying they can't act on a single breach. I wish you luck but think you should expect nothing other than a long fight I'm afraid.

Npowers service was criticised by Ofgem / Energy watch years ago & though they claim to have invested in imoprovements their reputation for service never seems to get any better.

As to the others whilst some may be a little better than Npower on service I don't think any of the big six could be described as good so I wouldn't be optimistic on them raising queries

undaunted

In the case of Npower versus the vulnerable the customer did claim that distance selling regulations should apply, electricity supply not being a regulated industry as defined within the exclusions within that act and specific reference being maxde to distance communication by any means. Npower sought to argue they do not apply as the industry is regulated.

The Judges finding would imply they would not though he is said to have failed to properly hear all arguments and to himself have stathed that he read but had not understood the defence arguments.

It remains to be seen what the Court of appeal make of things.

You may however be interested in the following SLC

Information for Customers about Deemed Contracts
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]7.7 If the licensee supplies electricity to a Customer‟s premises under a Deemed Contract, it must take all reasonable steps to provide that Customer with: [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](a) the Principal Terms of the Deemed Contract; and [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](b) Notice that Contracts, with terms that may be different from the terms of Deemed Contracts, may be available and of how information about such Contracts may be obtained. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]It would be ridiculous to claim that no similar obligation would apply to an express contract! SLC 22.4 and 22.5 therefore specifically state[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]22.4 A Domestic Supply Contract must: [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](a) be in Writing; and [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](b) include all the terms and conditions for the supply of electricity, including: [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](i) a term separately identifying the Charges for the Supply of Electricity and the charge for any other good or service to be provided; and [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](ii) a term reflecting the provisions of standard condition 24 (Termination of Domestic Supply Contracts) in relation to the ending of the contract in the circumstances set out there. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]22.5 A Domestic Supply Contract or a Deemed Contract with a Domestic Customer entered into or negotiated on or after the day after the day on which the Electricity and Gas (Internal Markets) Regulations 2011 are made must include: [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](a) the identity and address of the licensee; [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](b) the services provided, including any maintenance services provided, and any service quality levels that are to be met; [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](c) if a connection is required, when that connection will take place; [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](d) the means by which up to date information on all applicable tariffs and maintenance charges may be obtained; [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](e) any conditions for renewal of the Domestic Supply Contract; [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](f) any compensation and refund arrangements which apply if contracted quality service levels are not met, including inaccurate and delayed billing; and [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](g) information concerning the Domestic Customer‟s rights as regards the means of dispute settlement available to them in the event of a dispute with the licensee including how dispute resolution procedures can be initiated. [/FONT]


http://epr.ofgem.gov.uk/EPRFiles/Electricity_supply_standard_licence_conditions_consolidated_coming%20into%20effect%20-_Current%20Version.pdf[/FONT]

Terrylw1

7.7 relates to Deemed but this is a switch.

22.4 & 22.5 will be useful to the OP if they send it and its missing these details. 25 has coverage for sending the details from a sale.

25.6_Pre-contract_oblig

Yesterday (10/11/2012) I have received a Letter from npower.
Dated: 5th November 2012.
Subject: "You npower complaint" (sic)

I note: my Complaint Reference (see Post #2 - above) is NOT included.
I speculate: this might have been sent following my 28/09/2012 phone call (see Post #4 - above).

This Letter answers my questions. It does say what my Gas Rate is.

The last paragraph is:
"I trust the above information has been useful to you Mx Yyyyyyyyyyyyy {my Name} and I can assure you we will get your welcome pack to you as soon as possible."

So, the information I have asked for 9 times has come.
The 'normal npower Welcome Pack' (which I fully expect includes the Contract) is still to come.

So, from my personal situation I can say: "We are getting there. I will wait for my Welcome Pack (with Contract)."

However, my main concern is the wider concern.
As I have already Posted (in Post #28).

---

My issues with npower are:
1. They should have sent me a Contract BEFORE the switched me (they did not). This is SLC 25.6.
2. They should also do this for ALL their potential new Customers. npower are telling me, on the phone, that others are also not receiving their Contracts.
3. They should, by now (I've been asking for it since 17/09/2012), have sent me a copy of my Contract (SLC 22.8).

My issues with Ofgem are:
1. IMHO they should be enforcing the SLCs.
2. To enable them to get reports of possible breaches of the SLCs they should make it easy for Customers to report them.
Their Telephone for "Ofgem Consumer Affairs" (0207 901 7295) has a recorded message but 'no human to take your call'.
I want them to hear and answer the questions in Post #7 (above).

---

I'm still keen that the Regulator receives the information.
I realise, from what others have Posted (in this and other threads) that we might not get much communication or action from Ofgem.

In the next two posts I'll address some of the Posts others have kindly provided.

25.6_Pre-contract_oblig

25.6_Pre-contract_oblig

Terrylw1, your Post #30 (above)

Thanks again, for all the time you have spent posting (in this and other threads).

"...25 is definitely relevant to your case though."

I agree. From SLC 25 - it is worth reading the whole of SLC 25 (NB 25.1 the "Objective") and not just SLC 25.6 - it is clear to me that ALL Customers who Telephone to 'switch Supplier' should receive a Contract before they switch.
Remember my specific case is a 'Telephone Sale / switch'.
Remember, too, that in all 10 Telephone conversations with myself and npower (documented above) npower's staff have been saying that I will get a Contract, it is normal to send a Contract, I should have had a Contract.

Where npower are telling me that they are in breach of SLC 25.6 is that they KNOW they should have sent the Contract BEFORE they 'switched me to become their Customer'. The wider issue is that I am NOT the only one. IMHO 'having a new computer system that can't produce a Contract', when legally they have to, is no defence.
They are in breach of SLC 25.6!

Ofgem are also NOT 'holding npower to account' on this issue.

A small digression: Online switching.
One could argue, if the Customer 'switched online', that they could, potentially, 'read their Quotation and Contract online'.

Hence, in the Gas SLC 25.6 "... (a) provide to that Domestic Customer, in Writing or by means of electronic display, an estimate of the total annual Charges for the Supply of Gas which would be payable by that Domestic Customer under the Offered Domestic Supply Contract; and ...". That is, the phrase "or by means of electronic display" could be used to cover some forms of online sale.

Back to the example documented in this thread (a Telephone Sale).

I also think undaunted, in Post #33, thinks that Domestic Customers should get a Written Contract.

undaunted has quoted the Electricity SLCs.
My reading of both the Gas and the Electricity SLCs is that Telephone Customers should be sent Contracts.


Now, a minor nit pick about Terrylw1's point on "22.8" in Post #30.

"22.8 is only relevant if you are covered under 22.2.

The reason why I don't think 22.2 applies to switching is because it uses the term Must. ..."

I know you have MUCH more experience than me but I am disagreeing with you on this point.

My reading of SLC 22 (again reading the whole of SLC 22) is that the general expectation is
'supplying written Contracts to new Customers is normal'.

In other words, I don't think one can argue:
'SLC 22.8 (the supplying a COPY of a Contract to a Customer who asks for one) does NOT apply to you (a particular Customer) because you have a particular Contract and we, the Supplier, only send a copy of a Contract to Customers who have a "Deemed Contract" '.

Here is the Gas SLC 22.8

"22.8 If a person requests a copy of any form of Domestic Supply Contract that the licensee may offer under paragraph 22.2, the licensee must send a copy of that form of contract to that person within a reasonable period of time after receiving the request."

I am arguing that "any form of Domestic Supply Contract" means any Contract the Supplier is using to make the legal agreement between them and their Domestic Customer. I am arguing that the reference to "22.2" means "all types of Domestic Supply Contracts" and not "just Deemed Contracts".

Terrylw1 wrote (in Post #30) "... Ofgem can't force suppliers to take customers ..."
Terrylw1, I agree. However I think this is covered by SLC 22.6 (d) "... the licensee requires the Domestic Customer to pay a Security Deposit and he does not do so ...". So the Supplier is not FORCED to accept a Customer BUT if they DO accept a Customer then there is a Contract AND the Supplier should send a written version of it to the Customer (SLC 25.6). If the Customer asks for a copy (for whatever reason - in my case because I have NEVER had one) then the Supplier should send a copy (SLC 22.8).

So, my reading of SLC 22.8 - I think it means: "If a Customer asks for a copy of their Contract - send it, don't delay."
I think this applies to ALL Domestic Customer Contracts (and not 'ONLY applies to Customers who have Deemed Contracts').
My Questions, which I will repeat below, about this assume this interpretation of SLC 22.8 - just given.

I know some, from their bitter experience, are not optimistic that we will get 'public answers'.
However, IF we got a written answers it could help ALL Customers.

In Post #6 - questions to npower
Q-N-05. If a Customer informs npower that they have NOT received a Contract (for any potential reason e.g. it was lost in the Post): what is a reasonable number of days for a Customer to wait to receive a Contract?

In Post #7 - questions to Ofgem
Q-R-05. If a Customer informs an Energy Supply Company that they have NOT received a Contract (for any potential reason e.g. it was lost in the Post): what is a reasonable number of days for a Customer to wait to receive the Contract?

So, I think it would be very good if Ofgem gave a public ruling (or at least some guidance).

Remember, in my case I've repeatedly asked for my Contract.
IMHO a 'compliant Supplier' should be able to supply, by Post (or Courier etc), a Customer with a copy of their Contract within 2 weeks.

We know 'npower's new system' has failed to 'get me my Contract' (or a copy of my Contract).
I am not convinced that there is a written Contract, for MY Telephone Sale.
I speculate that the 'new system at npower' has not generated it.
If npower had an electronic or paper version of MY Contract, I would expect that npower would have sent me a COPY of it by now!

I am arguing that npower's 'new system' is not fit for purpose.
It is 'making npower breach SLCs'.
By using it, npower have breached SLC 25.6 (for me and other Customers).
By using it, npower have breached SLC 22.8 (in my case - I don't have evidence of other Customers).
If they continue to use it they will continue to breach these SLCs.

How can that be acceptable in a Regulated Energy Supply market?


25.6_Pre-contract_oblig

25.6_Pre-contract_oblig

backfoot, Terrylw1 and jalexa,

I've been following what you (and others) have been posting in the Thread:
The Energy Ombudsman - Good or Bad ?
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4126943
(Started by backfoot on 16-08-2012 - Edit added URL on 03 Dec 2012).

I think there is enough evidence in this thread for Ofgem to at least ask npower
to refute what I have claimed. If the facts are as I have stated (or if there
are more breaches - as I suspect) then it would be an 'easy case' for them
to 'rule on'.

25.6_Pre-contract_oblig

jalexa

25.6_Pre-contract_oblig wrote: »

My issues with Ofgem are:
1. IMHO they should be enforcing the SLCs.
2. To enable them to get reports of possible breaches of the SLCs they should make it easy for Customers to report them.
Their Telephone for "Ofgem Consumer Affairs" (0207 901 7295) has a recorded message but 'no human to take your call'.

Let me offer some advice about dealing with the Ofgen Consumer Affairs directorate.

As you have found out they don't seem to want to deal with enquiries. I suggest you submit your issue by email. The issue must not be a individual complaint. You need to allege a systemic issue and make an offer of evidence. You need to construct your email in such a way that a reasonable person would recognise it requires at least the courtesy of a personal acknowledgement.

You will receive a standard acknowledgment which makes reference to a possible response within 10 days. If you do not receive such courtesy within 10 days I suggest you go straight to raising a formal complaint about Ofgem. Bureaucratic organisations always have a process. Make individuals feel the heat. They are paid to do a job they apparently are not doing. For the "higher-ups" you may need to engage with Government Ministers.

I regret when I had the opportunity I was otherwise engaged and couldn't afford the time. Good luck.

I just remembered one other thing. They *may* try to respond by phone. If you have used the email channel, insist on an email response otherwise you may find you have no proof.

backfoot

Where is the NPower Rep in all this?

We have an informed and well researched poster with a complaint about an elementary principle of the Supplier/customer relationship.He/she isn't going to go away without an answer.

Fundamentally,we are governed and told to be aware of the detail within a Contract before signing up.

The allegation is that NPower aren't providing such documentation.

What is NPower's statement on the matter?

System

backfoot wrote: »

Where is the NPower Rep in all this?

We have an informed and well researched poster with a complaint about an elementary principle of the Supplier/customer relationship.He/she isn't going to go away without an answer.

Fundamentally,we are governed and told to be aware of the detail within a Contract before signing up.

The allegation is that NPower aren't providing such documentation.

What is NPower's statement on the matter?

As the OP has a formal complaint open with NPower then I do not think it a good idea for the forum rep to now get involved and possibly muddy the waters by having a second line of enquiry/investigation running.

backfoot

!!!!!! wrote: »

As the OP has a formal complaint open with NPower then I do not think it a good idea for the forum rep to now get involved and possibly muddy the waters by having a second line of enquiry/investigation running.

The OP has reported, that on the phone, they were told that the situation is the same for all customers. As a potential NPower customer I want to know if I will be getting contract documentation and at what stage of the process.

Are these 'Contracts' void if the correct cooling off procedures have not been followed?

The Rep can respond to me if you prefer....;)