Warning: npower accept new customers without sending them a Contract

jalexa

!!!!!! wrote: »

As the OP has a formal complaint open with NPower then I do not think it a good idea for the forum rep to now get involved and possibly muddy the waters by having a second line of enquiry/investigation running.

Well Backfoot can choose their own wording but what I "read" was that (E.ON excepted), the forum reps rarely engage with the forum.

In fact the main people they do respond to (usually once) are OPs who rant once and are never heard of again. IMO forum reps who do not engage with the life and work of the forum (as per E.ON) should lose their posting privileges.

25.6_Pre-contract_oblig

backfoot wrote:

Where is the NPower Rep in all this?

We have an informed and well researched poster with a complaint about an elementary principle of the Supplier/customer relationship. He/she isn't going to go away without an answer.

Fundamentally, we are governed and told to be aware of the detail within a Contract before signing up.

The allegation is that NPower aren't providing such documentation.

What is NPower's statement on the matter?

.

!!!!!! wrote:

As the OP has a formal complaint open with NPower then I do not think it a good idea for the forum rep to now get involved and possibly muddy the waters by having a second line of enquiry/investigation running.

On the contary, as the OP I want npower to publicly answer my Questions - as in Post #6 (above).

I have said, several times, that the reason I'm making Public Posts is that I believe npower have an issue with their 'new system'. npower have already told me on the phone that other Customers are affected (i.e. the 'issue' is not confined to my Account, my Sale etc).

If the npower Forum Rep feels it is 'beyond my remit to post' they can at least inform their colleagues of the potential reputational damage. If they discover that I have been told 'incorrect information on the phone', as documented in this thread, then npower can refute it.

For example, I have been told that "other Customers have also not been sent their Welcome Packs".

So, I have asked
"Q-N-02. How many new Customers is npower supplying without providing them with a Contract as per Standard Condition 25.6?"

Another example, I have been told that "the Regulator was aware" (see post #5).
So, I have asked

"Q-N-03. When did npower inform the Regulator that they were in breach of Standard Condition 25.6?"

Q-N-04. On what basis, conditions or terms has the Regulator allowed npower to continue accepting new Customers in breach of Standard Condition 25.6?"

I also want Ofgem to tell us what their view is, and what they are allowing (see Post #7).

25.6_Pre-contract_oblig

backfoot

jalexa wrote: »

Well Backfoot can choose their own wording but what I "read" was that (E.ON excepted), the forum reps rarely engage with the forum.

In fact the main people they do respond to (usually once) are OPs who rant once and are never heard of again. IMO forum reps who do not engage with the life and work of the forum (as per E.ON) should lose their posting privileges.

Certainly Eon are an excellent example of how it should be done. Their Reps are diligent, responsive and have worked with the Forum to improve both their image and policies. I for one will now consider them as a definate option, where before I wouldn't have touched them.

NPower and the others can choose how to play it themselves . If there is nothing in the OP's allegations, they can explain it and it will go away. If they don't, then readers will draw their own conclusions that they have something to hide.

What is great is that we have a new poster who has taken their own complaint into the wider context to help other customers.They stand to gain little other than the satisfaction of stopping these companies riding roughshod over their obligations.

I agree with you about non engagement and posting privileges, because the interventions are mainly designed to pick off the complaints before they escalate and damage image.e.g Scottish Power tried to pick me off on the same matter but won't explain what the procedure should be to the Forum.

A separate thread?

25.6_Pre-contract_oblig

backfoot wrote:

... The OP has reported, that on the phone, they were told that the situation is the same for all customers. As a potential NPower customer I want to know if I will be getting contract documentation and at what stage of the process. ...

Point of Information: I've NOT been told that "all customers" are affected. I have been told that I'm NOT the only one.


However, backfoot has clearly understood my general position: this is a 'systemic issue', it is affecting Customers (plural). As far as anybody can tell, on this Forum, the issues continue. If it was 'just me that had been impacted' then I would have discussed it in private with npower. As I believe OTHERS are being impacted I have taken the trouble to try and get the 'whole situation' resolved. To my mind this is the Regulator's role.


25.6_Pre-contract_oblig

Terrylw1

I think its a good point over the rep.

Despite being a complaint, we know that all contact sent to the rep reaches their Executive Complaints Team anyway.

We also know that the Eon reps will keep assisting, posting useful info and at times have to chase slow complaints up.

Its perhaps for another dedicated thread but we don't know what npower's commitment is to MSE as they don't comment on all threads raised against them even to divert them out of the public's view so perhaps senior management don't see the full opportunity with MSE.

I suspect considering another thread where policy was stated when there were areas of grey that could involve supplier error but the rep wouldn't engage when challenged, you won't get much engagement if at all.

Terrylw1

25.6_Pre-contract_oblig wrote: »

Now, a minor nit pick about Terrylw1's point on "22.8" in Post #30.

"22.8 is only relevant if you are covered under 22.2.

The reason why I don't think 22.2 applies to switching is because it uses the term Must. ..."

I know you have MUCH more experience than me but I am disagreeing with you on this point.

My reading of SLC 22 (again reading the whole of SLC 22) is that the general expectation is
'supplying written Contracts to new Customers is normal'.

In other words, I don't think one can argue:
'SLC 22.8 (the supplying a COPY of a Contract to a Customer who asks for one) does NOT apply to you (a particular Customer) because you have a particular Contract and we, the Supplier, only send a copy of a Contract to Customers who have a "Deemed Contract" '.

Here is the Gas SLC 22.8

"22.8 If a person requests a copy of any form of Domestic Supply Contract that the licensee may offer under paragraph 22.2, the licensee must send a copy of that form of contract to that person within a reasonable period of time after receiving the request."

I am arguing that "any form of Domestic Supply Contract" means any Contract the Supplier is using to make the legal agreement between them and their Domestic Customer. I am arguing that the reference to "22.2" means "all types of Domestic Supply Contracts" and not "just Deemed Contracts".

Terrylw1 wrote (in Post #30) "... Ofgem can't force suppliers to take customers ..."
Terrylw1, I agree. However I think this is covered by SLC 22.6 (d) "... the licensee requires the Domestic Customer to pay a Security Deposit and he does not do so ...". So the Supplier is not FORCED to accept a Customer BUT if they DO accept a Customer then there is a Contract AND the Supplier should send a written version of it to the Customer (SLC 25.6). If the Customer asks for a copy (for whatever reason - in my case because I have NEVER had one) then the Supplier should send a copy (SLC 22.8).

So, my reading of SLC 22.8 - I think it means: "If a Customer asks for a copy of their Contract - send it, don't delay."
I think this applies to ALL Domestic Customer Contracts (and not 'ONLY applies to Customers who have Deemed Contracts').
My Questions, which I will repeat below, about this assume this interpretation of SLC 22.8 - just given.

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I think it depends on the meaning of 22.7 (b). If this applies to sites not yet registered to the supplier as well, this would allow a supplier to turn away customers that they were forced to enter into a contract with by 22.2.

If 22.7 (b) only applies to a site already registered to the supplier then 22.2 would not apply to switchers.

Its really worth knowing because in Undaunted's thread & another more recent one involving Npower where there is an issue with a supplier ending a contract...which I know is physically impossible as there is no provision for it in the industry processes. I can't see how any supplier can give 7 days notice as there is no industry process to move the customer away without they triggering the switch. It could easily be applied in a switch though, a sort of supplier cooling off period of cancellation.

This is where the SLC's can be interpreted in more than one way. I can see your point and its makes sense, but its just ensuring Must can be overturned by an exclusion to give suppliers their usual choice to offer their business to customers.

The online issue is an area not covered in SLC25 which came in due to all the miss selling chaos. It only defines Marketing and Telesales. Neither of these are defined as the suppliers own website or that of a switching website. So, consumers have less protection here. If 22.2 can be fully proven, it does provide some extra protection though.

25.6_Pre-contract_oblig

Terrylw1, a few points on your Post #47 (which is commenting on my Post #36).
In short, I stand by what I said in Post #36.
Perhaps I have not worded it well.

First, the big picture
1. The big picture, from my point of view, is about
'npower's new system is not able to send me, and other new Customers, a Contract'.

1.1 I think the 'normal npower Welcome Pack' includes a Contract.

1.2 I know I've not received one.

1.3 I am sure that npower have not sent one.
The letter that npower sent me (Dated 5th November 2012 - see Post #35) confirms this.
The last paragraph is:
"I trust the above information has been useful to you Mx Yyyyyyyyyyyyy {my Name} and I can assure you we will get your welcome pack to you as soon as possible."
This Letter also confirms, in writing, what npower and I have been saying on the phone:
I am their Customer, and from 21/09/2012 npower have been supplying me with Gas and Electricity.
In this Letter the Rates for Gas and Electricity are given: both the Rates I am paying now
and the higher Rates I will be paying from 26 November 2012 onwards.

1.4 npower have told me that "other Customers have also not been sent their Welcome Packs".

It is point 1.4 "other Customers..." that leads me to believe that there is a systemic issue at npower
that is affecting some people who 'npower are accepting as Customers but are NOT providing a Contract'.

This is the reason I started this thread.
This is the issue I am trying to get Ofgem to fix.
I think it is an example of 'npower have breached SLC 25.6'.
I think you and I and others who have posted all agree on this main point.


2. Now the much smaller point, your Post #47 (which is commenting on my Post #36).

Another symptom of the 'new system at npower failing SLCs' is my request for a copy of my Contract.
I think I am entitled to ask for a copy (SLC 22.8).

AFAIK I am the only person who is posting in THIS THREAD who is claiming:
"I asked npower for a copy of my Contract" (NOT the Welcome Pack) "and it has not arrived.".

I am using the 'inability to supply a copy of my Contract' as circumstantial evidence that
'the new system at npower also breaches SLC 22.8'.

Are you saying "npower are NOT under an obligation to supply a copy of my Contract"?
Are you saying "npower could refuse to supply me with a copy of my Contract"?
AND they could say that SLC 22.8 does not apply in the circumstances I have documented
in Posts #1 to #5?

I don't think you are.

I think your point is about some other potential circumstance.

Remember, the Letter says I became their Customer on 21/09/2012
and in all 10 Telephone conversations npower acknowledge that
A. I have a Contract
B. normally they send them to Customers
C. their new system has issues at the moment so they can't send me my Contract

They have NEVER said 'we will not send you your Contract',
or 'you are not entitled to ask for a copy of your Contract',
or 'we won't send you a copy of your Contract'.
What they have said is that the can't send it at the moment
(and as they don't know when 'the system will be fixed' they can't say WHEN I will receive it).

The more I look at it the more I am convinced that ALL Domestic Customers (that the Supplier have accepted as Customers) have a Contract. If the Customer has a Contract and the Customer ask for a copy then the Supplier should send it - SLC 22.8.


Now some specific detail in your your Post #47 (which is commenting on my Post #36).

The points that you and I are discussing:
D1. I quoted the Gas SLCs - Consolidated to 28 August 2012, because it was the Gas Contract that I had not received (and it was in August and September 2012 when I should have been sent the Contract which included the 'Gas Rates etc').

D2. I think you are quoting the Electricity SLCs (possibly Consolidated to 01 November 2012).

In the Electricity SLCs the Section 22.7 is "Exceptions to licensee’s obligations".
In the Gas SLCs the "Exceptions to licensee’s obligations" is 22.6 - the 'Numbers are different' but the exceptions are similar.

Perhaps we should have a separate thread on
"When can a Supplier refuse to supply an existing Customer with a copy of their Contract"

Possible answers include:
* You are not one of our Customers.
* You are an online Customer so if you want hardcopy log into your Account and ...

So, I continue to agree with you that there are some circumstances where a Supplier can
refuse to accept a Domestic Customer. I also agree that it would be useful to clarify these
circumstances (although I'm so new to looking at these points and I think they are 'off topic'
to my main point - I don't think I can add any useful information).

My reading of the phrase in SLC 22.8
"any form of Domestic Supply Contract that the licensee may offer under paragraph 22.2"
is the same as 'ALL Domestic Customers that the Supplier acknowledge are their Customer' because they have entered into a Contract.

In the case of Telephone Sales the Contract is verbal until the Customer receives the
written Contract and 'cools off'.

Here is 22.8 again (this time the Electricity SLC, the wording (and SLC number) is
IDENTICAL to the Gas SLC 22.8 quoted in Post #36):

"22.8 If a person requests a copy of any form of Domestic Supply Contract that the licensee may offer under paragraph 22.2, the licensee must send a copy of that form of contract to that person within a reasonable period of time after receiving the request."

So, in cases like mine (becoming a new Customer by Telephone Sale - where I've never
given npower, or any Supplier, any email address) I think SLC 22.8 does apply.


25.6_Pre-contract_oblig

undaunted

Terrylw1 wrote: »

7.7 relates to Deemed but this is a switch.

22.4 & 22.5 will be useful to the OP if they send it and its missing these details. 25 has coverage for sending the details from a sale.

It's obviously a matter of interpretation but I am suggesting that it would be ridiculous to suggest that criteria applying to the deemed contracts would not apply to others - ie to provide principal terms and conditions in writing (as is also comparable with distance sellling regs & right to cancel)

I am also suggesting that having already failed to provide a written contract as requested the conditions have already been broken - irrespective of whether such details are later provided / contained.

undaunted

25.6_Pre-contract_oblig wrote: »

My reading of SLC 22 (again reading the whole of SLC 22) is that the general expectation is
'supplying written Contracts to new Customers is normal'.

In other words, I don't think one can argue:
'SLC 22.8 (the supplying a COPY of a Contract to a Customer who asks for one) does NOT apply to you (a particular Customer) because you have a particular Contract and we, the Supplier, only send a copy of a Contract to Customers who have a "Deemed Contract" '.

Here is the Gas SLC 22.8

"22.8 If a person requests a copy of any form of Domestic Supply Contract that the licensee may offer under paragraph 22.2, the licensee must send a copy of that form of contract to that person within a reasonable period of time after receiving the request."

I am arguing that "any form of Domestic Supply Contract" means any Contract the Supplier is using to make the legal agreement between them and their Domestic Customer. I am arguing that the reference to "22.2" means "all types of Domestic Supply Contracts" and not "just Deemed Contracts".

Whilst I believe some suppliers may attempt to diferentiate on such points I agree with your interpretation and would suggest that definitions within various Ofgem documents support that.

I would also suggest that any lack of industry processes as Terrylw1 refers to are a matter / problem for the industry to address and not a means to deny the consumer their rights.

Terrylw1

The Npower rep hasn't responded to this thread but has to another one.

The OP has asked them to comment on here...I wonder if they will?