Retired people could work for pensions..

givememoney

Loughton_Monkey wrote: »

Why do you find this "disgusting"?

You read me wrong, the `disgusting` bit is being expected to work for the pension, not the amount.

I was well aware before retiring that I would have to manage on less, I am not that stupid.

How old are you? When you reach your 60s even if you are in realitively good health things start to crack up and to know you have to force yourself out to work when your not as fit as you used to be can be hard.

Also with myself I do unpaid work sometimes looking after my grandson so my daughter can go out to work and contribute to the tax system. This of course I enjoy but gives her the chance to work and not to have to pay for childcare.

As it happens I could have retired at 60 but carried on till I was 64 so I did contribute another 4 years into the tax pot.

PaulF81

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

Having just retired - I certainly have no intention of just sitting at home feeling lonely. I am taking a little Recovery Time and Catch-Up Time initially after all those years of working at a job I hated and that has "drained the life" out of me. But one of the things I plan for my retirement is a little voluntary work (as in a few hours a week - not a full-time job or even 20 hours per week worth) at an organisation of MY choice doing tasks of MY choice. That is the crucial difference and, of course, should I be feeling too ill temporarily to keep on doing that voluntary work of MY choice - then there will be no problem in me "putting it on hold" until I feel well again. During the rest of that extra free time I have every intention of "getting out and about" and joining things and making new friends. Actually I think I'm a lot less likely to be lonely than I was whilst having to hold down a job.

With said few hours per week voluntary work of MY choice - then I will be doing it willingly and to the best of my ability and therefore making a real contribution. After all "one volunteer is worth 2 pressed men" or whatever that phrase is. You can just imagine how grudgingly/badly a pressganged "volunteer" would do any tasks they were forced to do.

You also seem to be taking no account whatsoever of the fact that many OAP's aren't in good enough health to be able to manage to do any job (be it paid or pressganged "voluntary") and it is a necessity and blessing for them that at least they're not having to try and force a weary/pain-racked old body into work each day to "earn their crust".

Why should you be allowed to retire now when I will have to work till much later, as I was promised when I started paying tax?
Why should I have to pay for your retirement when the current setup is not affordable?
All of your complaints are no different to a doleite who turns around and says why should I work when I can get paid for doing nothing? The only difference is, the work you have done seems to make you think that despite the scheme being completely unaffordable, you are still entitled to NHS treatment that will preserve you well past the order of things and a pension which as i say is unaffordable, costing the state over 120 grand for the modern life expectancy of a pensioner. This is all paid for with state debt (not been paid for by you), university fees (before you go on about lots more going these days I still think it should only be the top 5% who go) and reduced infrastructure spending.

The bad news for OAPs generally is my generation are not very happy about this and in a decade from now will be in power and will be most definitely changing things like funding to the NHS and index linked state pensions. Watch this space. The NHS is one area the conservatives needed to chop by a quarter, instead they pandered to pensioners and boomers and killed other valuable areas of state expenditure. If pensioners had 5 years shaved off life expectancy, we wouldn't have a deficit!

You could prevent this by demonstating to my generation you can serve a purpose in stead of whining about being a pressed man or woman!

ash28

PaulF81 wrote: »

Here you go, the evidence... Whilst many oldies whine about the mail and how their taxes (not that they pay any anymore) are wasted on the yoof, you need to understand where the DWP actually goes, so here it is, 09-10.



36%. Thats mammoth compared to all other benefits. 77 BILLION on pensions alone (including winter fuel allowance). I think as a higher rate tax payer I should expect a little more back from pensioners in response to this payment. around 12 million pensioners, thats nearly 7000 per pensioner per year. Assuming the average lifespan of those currently on pensions is around 20-25 years, thats 140-175K per pensioner. Are you REALLY telling me that these individuals paid this vast sum of money in taxation and NI contributions, once you account for expenditure such as MIRAs, the NHS etc? Of course they didnt! I still maintain for this reason, that OAPs are the biggest Benefits scammers going! not their fault but no-one should be able to rely on the state for their retirement, in the same way no one should be able to rely on the state during thir working years!

Here are the details for NHS expenditure:



OAPs (defined here as over 65) cost us annually 57% of the annual NHS budget. thats 57% of a 63 Billion budget, or another 35 billion for the OAP community, or another £4750 per OAP, which over 20-25 year life expectancy will cost another £95-£119000

Add this to what they are costing us in benefits and you can rapidly see that they have never paid anywhere near enough into the system.

Solution? Quite simple really. Stop spending thousands on life prolonging treatments (a recent trip to papworth saw 70% of its inpatients of OAP age). Give everything you need to assist comfort, but whilst we have a system that is prolonging the unproductive sector of our population, we will go bust. Those are the facts. They are unpleasant, but unless something drastic is done in terms of cost, we will go bust. The other option is to raise the OAP age for ALL to 75 with 5 years grace, pensioners are enjoying the same life expectancy that I can expect, so why should they get more years work free? If that includes free community work so be it. For those that already contribute, they wont have to do any more. for those that dont, they need to start. We are all in this together. allegedly.

Well I do pay income tax (early retired) and object to people that tell me I don't - in 10 years time when I get the state pension at 66 I'll pay even more tax.

Why do you think people of state pension age don't pay income tax?

Your chart is interesting in that it seems to cover everything paid out in the UK.

However, there is a National Insurance Fund which is reported by the governments actuaries.

Is it a real fund? Yes it is,
http://www.dmo.gov.uk/index.aspx?page=CRND/CRND_Portfolio/NIFIA

The NIF is intended to be the 'current account' of the National Insurance scheme, holding sufficient funds to even out fluctuations in the movement of contributions and benefits and to provide a source of finance to meet exceptional demands, for example in times of unemployment or a sickness epidemic. By virtue of section 161(3) of the Social Security Administration Act 1992, HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) transfers money to the Investment Account on days when it has a net inflow of cash and draws from the Investment Account on days when payments exceed receipts.

The fund is primarily to pay the pensions and benefits of those who meet the qualifying criteria -and is used to pay state pensions (but not the means-tested pension credit), incapacity benefit, widows’ benefits, maternity allowance, guardian’s allowance, jobseeker’s allowance (contribution based) and the Christmas bonus. Part of the contributions is not paid into the Fund but goes towards the cost of the National Health Service; but the money paid into the Fund can only be used for the payment of the above benefits (where qualifying criteria has been met) and the cost of administration.

Other benefits like housing benefit, council tax benefit, working tax credit, child tax credit, child benefit, pension credit, income based jobseekers do not come out of the fund. Their funding comes from elsewhere.

The National Insurance Fund has a surplus of £38bn - it was about £50bn when this government took over. The surplus should have been a lot more but successive governments have borrowed from it.

Basic state pensions cost the fund £56bn in 2010/11
Additional state pensions (SP2)cost the fund £13bn in 2010/11.

http://www.gad.gov.uk/Documents/Social%20Security/GAD_report_280111.pdf

Obviously pensions are the largest part of the fund's expenditure and it's likely to remain that way.

Those in receipt of full basic state pensions who have qualified in their own right have already made their 39 or 44 years worth of contributions to be able to receive it - and the money is there to pay them - even if it is on a pay as you go basis.

In terms of contribution years they have paid NI for more years than you will have to - 30 years now for a full state pension.

You would be far better looking at people who have made benefits a lifestyle choice and who have contributed nothing in the way of tax & NI and who will receive the same in the end as those people who have worked and contributed to their pensions for a lot more years than you have been alive.

Looking at your last paragraph are you suggesting that there should be a one way ticket to Dignitas if you become ill after the age of 65?

PaulF81

those last 2 paragraphs are my entire point, if you havent paid in you should get nowt.

the talk of means testing the state pension is perverse; for those never having paid in, they shouldnt be on any more than the jobseekers allowance, no winter fuel allowance and other benefits. absolute breadline. if anything, the state pension should have an opt out, vis a vis the nhs, with significant savings for higher and top rate tax payers who pay the bulk of the bill and can expect the same treatment.

as for your comments on dignitas, for those who havent contributed a jot, absolutely, yes. same with crimes that once were considered capital and crimes against children. not only do you lose your right to freedom during your tenure, you also have a death sentence if you become seriously ill past retirement age. palliative care by all means, but no wonder drugs gene therapy, organ transplants etc. those who havent contributed into the system, again, we have to recognise the nhs is bleeding the country dry and savings have to be made. those pensioners that a well enough to help but didnt contribute enough for full ni credits during their lives could pay for a nhs insurance through helping the system, either assisting those who are ill or have no facultys, or going into local services if they have the requisite skills.

otherwise those at the end of their lives will be screwing it for the younger generations.

the nif is smaller than it should be for one reason. those in reciept of the state pension never paid enough to cover their pensions in combination with the other services they recieved in their lifetimes. and now they want someone else to foot their bill.

grizzly1911

PaulF81 wrote: »

those last 2 paragraphs are my entire point, if you havent paid in you should get nowt.

the talk of means testing the state pension is perverse; for those never having paid in, they shouldnt be on any more than the jobseekers allowance, no winter fuel allowance and other benefits. absolute breadline. if anything, the state pension should have an opt out, vis a vis the nhs, with significant savings for higher and top rate tax payers who pay the bulk of the bill and can expect the same treatment.

as for your comments on dignitas, for those who havent contributed a jot, absolutely, yes. same with crimes that once were considered capital and crimes against children. not only do you lose your right to freedom during your tenure, you also have a death sentence if you become seriously ill past retirement age. palliative care by all means, but no wonder drugs gene therapy, organ transplants etc. those who havent contributed into the system, again, we have to recognise the nhs is bleeding the country dry and savings have to be made. those pensioners that a well enough to help but didnt contribute enough for full ni credits during their lives could pay for a nhs insurance through helping the system, either assisting those who are ill or have no facultys, or going into local services if they have the requisite skills.

otherwise those at the end of their lives will be screwing it for the younger generations.

the nif is smaller than it should be for one reason. those in reciept of the state pension never paid enough to cover their pensions in combination with the other services they recieved in their lifetimes. and now they want someone else to foot their bill.

Interesting that your rants do not seem to have garnered any support on this thread.

Falling tax receipts from having fewer real job opportunities and large corporates having being brought by offshore investors, declaring the tax in the Bahamas or, Switzerland or Luxembourg is the real problem. Not to mention the insatiable consumption from overseas of non essential tat.

I don't dispute that we are overspending but surely;) it can't be that bad if we are prosecuting wars that have nothing to do with us and contributing to overseas aid at the same time as failing to pursue unpaid tax and hidden earnings through avoidance schemes.

When more and more people are having to rely on food banks and energy "benefits" just to survive day to day there is obviously something wrong with the system and the I'm all right jack philosophy that pervades.

Interestingly in your tax calculation you only really consider direst taxation and NI without factoring in VAT and duty paid and continuing to be paid by all pensioners.

.

PaulF81

they will. they are just ahead of their time.

PaulF81

grizzly1911 wrote: »

Interesting that your rants do not seem to have garnered any support on this thread.

Falling tax receipts from having fewer real job opportunities and large corporates having being brought by offshore investors, declaring the tax in the Bahamas or, Switzerland or Luxembourg is the real problem.

I don't dispute that we are overspending but surely;) it can't be that bad if we are prosecuting wars that have nothing to do with us and contributing to overseas aid at the same time as failing to pursue unpaid tax and hidden earnings through avoidance schemes.

When more and more people are having to rely on food banks and energy "benefits" just to survive day to day there is obviously something wrong with the system and the I'm all right jack philosophy that pervades.

Interestingly in your tax calculation you only really consider direst taxation and NI without factoring in VAT and duty paid and continuing to be paid by all pensioners.

.

vat raises a paltry 13 billion a year. pensioners have little expeniture and typically incur far below average duty (fuel, stamp etc).

raise taxes on big corporations and all their uk employees will be looking for new jobs. look what is happening in france right now due to socialist policies, their laffer curve will swerve right to the left and their total tax take will fall through the floor.

foreign aid needs cutting, but is around 10% of what pensioners cost us annually - a drop in the ocean really.

thorsoak

PaulF81 wrote: »

vat raises a paltry 13 billion a year. pensioners have little expeniture and typically incur far below average duty (fuel, stamp etc).

raise taxes on big corporations and all their uk employees will be looking for new jobs. look what is happening in france right now due to socialist policies, their laffer curve will swerve right to the left and their total tax take will fall through the floor.

foreign aid needs cutting, but is around 10% of what pensioners cost us annually - a drop in the ocean really.

And how much, pray, did your generation cost the country annually before it started generating income for the country? And who brought up your generation? Does that count for nothing?

I take no comfort in the fact that my generation has spawned a generation of grasping ungenerous ingrates!

moneyistooshorttomention

PaulF81 wrote: »

as for your comments on dignitas, for those who havent contributed a jot, absolutely, yes. same with crimes that once were considered capital and crimes against children. not only do you lose your right to freedom during your tenure, you also have a death sentence if you become seriously ill past retirement age. palliative care by all means, but no wonder drugs gene therapy, organ transplants etc. those who havent contributed into the system, again, we have to recognise the nhs is bleeding the country dry and savings have to be made. those pensioners that a well enough to help but didnt contribute enough for full ni credits during their lives could pay for a nhs insurance through helping the system, either assisting those who are ill or have no facultys, or going into local services if they have the requisite skills.

otherwise those at the end of their lives will be screwing it for the younger generations.

Well...there we have it - Admission Central - as in this poster does indeed seem to think that we should all "shuffle off our mortal coil" (whether we like it or no) once we have ceased to be earning:eek:

The pity of it is - I think he is totally serious in his view on this and honestly DOES believe we should all be euthanised - whether we like it or no:eek:

ILW

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

Well...there we have it - Admission Central - as in this poster does indeed seem to think that we should all "shuffle off our mortal coil" (whether we like it or no) once we have ceased to be earning:eek:

The pity of it is - I think he is totally serious in his view on this and honestly DOES believe we should all be euthanised - whether we like it or no:eek:

He does appear rather bitter.
I think it's because he cannot afford to buy a house.