Manners - are they changing?

spike7451

Years ago,just after the first Gulf War,I was on the Rotterdam - Hull overnight ferry heading back to the UK on leave after being down the Gulf myself with the RAF.
Before I got onto the ferry the was an old British Rail (iirc) van with a few hippy type people in it,making a lot of noise.
Anyway,for some bizzare reason,the ferry bar was literally wall to wall Gulf war t-shirts,worn by blokes,like me,heading back to the UK for leave with their families,along with the hippie types.
After the bar closed & the lights were turned down,a couple of the hippies began to argue in the bar to which someone asked them to "Please be quiet as they are people are trying to sleep" & some of the children were crying at that point.
Hippie type hardman then made the mistake of yelling "Who the ****'s gonna make me!" or something along those lines,to which,to a man,the patrons of the bar all yelled "WE WILL!"....
Never seen a so called 'hardman' deflate so quick!

lobbyludd

Things like ettiquette, though I agree not as important, are NOT designed to look down on them, they are usually practical and are 'inclusive' so that any one bothered can learn them.

except that the "rules" often change, are different in different company, and have been very different in different eras: your example may be the origin of that particular rule, but surely then it needs only to be employed around a crowded table? not one where there is plenty of room., additionally - eating entirely with one hand would alleviate the situation further.

and do you take the last piece of cake or not? At certain times and in certain cultures it is rude to take the last piece (denies your fellow diners the chance of having it and shows up the hostess as not having laid on enough) at other times it was considered rude to not take the last piece (by leaving it you were implying that the hostess did not have the means/foresight to have more that could be brought out).

so do we always use the knives and forks the same way round so that no matter how crowded our table, our hostess will never be embarrassed by people eating in a manner that is only employed when the table is too crowded.

these are all false rules that come from a very limited social set from a comparitively short period of time: we are fully able to say to our guests now: sorry it's a bit cramped I'm just really glad you all made it, and enjoy their company without people worrying about offending each other or falling foul of stultifying outmoded conventions.

annie123

Polite refusals, why can't some people say them any more?

My adult son was on a bus going to work. It starts to fill up and a very pregnant woman boards and stops near him. He immediately stands up and pointing to his seat asks if she would like to sit. 'I'm pregnant not ill or disabled' was the reply shouted at him.
A 'thanks but I'm fine' would have been a polite but clear reply. He looked around and found a student laden with books/bags who gratefully accepted the seat.

Re eating in the street. Whilst I agree it's bad manners to walk along stuffing your mouth for everyone to see, there are exceptions I think.
1. Eating chips walking along the promenade by the sea, usually looking for somewhere to sit
2. The other is the 30 min lunch break. By time DS has logged off the till at work, waylaid by customer questions and walked up to the staff room, got jacket and money, gone to the loo, signed exit book, gone back down stairs and out of the shop that is 8-10mins mins gone, 2 mins walk to food shop, queue, order, wait get burger for example another 3 mins, then eat burger enroute back stopping at bench to eat if seats free, then back in 10 mins before end of break so can go to the loo again as wont be able to for the next 4 hours, put money/jacket back, sign back in and down to tills to sign back on. Yes he does take a pack up most days, but not always.
So if you see shop assistants eating whilst walking it because they don't have time to sit and eat (which he would love to do) rather than bad manners.

ab.da54

lostinrates wrote: »

Things like ettiquette, though I agree not as important, are NOT designed to look down on them, they are usually practical and are 'inclusive' so that any one bothered can learn them.

Things like which side to use knife and fork make eating around a socially crowded table more comfortable, thereby showing consideration to other diners. That's why I make the effort though it's not natural to me to use right hand.

They've certanly been used to look down upon others, in this thread.

Post after post of the 'I'm so perfect' type comments, yet ready to cast aspersions on others.

Manners are important to me. I like to know, when I am out, that I use the tools I was given as a child, in appropriate settings.

I don't like the behaviour of some people and do feel that the some of the tools I was given as a child are no longer of relevance to others in this day and age, however, I would never dream of holding myself on a higher plane than those who may have been raised differently.

Manners cost nothing, unfortunately neither does an air of superiority, it seems.

Georgia_Pa

Maybe they should make a phone application for these things, so the younger generation gets the message. iManners ? iTableRules? :P

ab.da54

annie123 wrote: »

My adult son was on a bus going to work. It starts to fill up and a very pregnant woman boards and stops near him. He immediately stands up and pointing to his seat asks if she would like to sit. 'I'm pregnant not ill or disabled' was the reply shouted at him.
A 'thanks but I'm fine' would have been a polite but clear reply. He looked around and found a student laden with books/bags who gratefully accepted the seat.

On another board, there was a discussion where someone would not offer up their seat and I was surprised by this as I thought it would be usual practice to offer up a seat to a heavily pregnant lady.

I did make a comment about the younger generation not doing things the way we did them, but was corrected on that, and for which I fully accept because it isn't just younger people but, back to offering up seats to heavily pregnant ladies, I can see why people may choose not to if they have been on the receiving end of the comment highlighted. Yes, a simple no thank you is more than enough. Shouting out what was, is nothing more than rude in itself.

VJsmum

gayleygoo wrote: »

I hope they will learn proper manners and use them outside the home, even though I do often talk with my mouth full and have my elbows on the table (why is that a bad thing??).

It comes from Tudor times when tables were a plank resting on trestles. Putting one's elbows on the table would upset the whole table so is a practical thing more than anything else (It may be earlier than that but I learned it when going to a tudor christmas "thing")

My kids (now 16 and 13) have had table manners drummed into them from an early age and at times I have had to put up with killer stares from them when other children would be running round in a restaurant and they still weren't allowed to. Even my ultra-critical dad had to admit that their table manners were exemplary. We have always eaten at the table, TV off, when all together - if kids eat alone, or just with me, I relax it a little and will usually allow the TV. No phones, no ipods etc.

I also can't even stand the sound of chewing - even with mouth closed. it is a real issue for me as my OH does it. He can't help it but drives me mad.

On a recent business trip to Korea I was terrified of offending by using the wrong manners / etiquette. Not helped by the fact that I cannot use chopsticks. Also not helped by not even knowing "please" and "thank you" but I still said them in English and hoped they got the gist :cool: One little thing was having to lift your glass to get it filled with water, beer, wine, whatever. It was the one thing I was corrected on - it makes far more sense to leave it on the table, but is obviously a big thing there.

lostinrates

ab.da54 wrote: »

They've certanly been used to look down upon others, in this thread.

Post after post of the 'I'm so perfect' type comments, yet ready to cast aspersions on others.

Manners are important to me. I like to know, when I am out, that I use the tools I was given as a child, in appropriate settings.

I don't like the behaviour of some people and do feel that the some of the tools I was given as a child are no longer of relevance to others in this day and age, however, I would never dream of holding myself on a higher plane than those who may have been raised differently.

Manners cost nothing, unfortunately neither does an air of superiority, it seems.

My very first post reminded that the test of good manners is the tolerance of others' lack of them.

It's the one I find hardest, particularly on the Internet. E.g. Is the mention of that in itself putting people down? Is your post critising others looking down on people whose posts have struck you as seeming that way? It's all very difficult to interpret sometimes!

As regards different cultures, I fundamentally accept that, and as someone who has moved between cultures since childhood I have to say its Ettiquette that taught me the 'manners' that are deemed appropriate in the societies I have moved into.

One could even suggest its a lack of consideration, or manners, not to research basic ettiquettes of cultures we move into or holiday in, because understanding the most grevious transgressions which might be not considered for us allow us to move among other cultures or societies causing least offence.

I look down on nobody for lack of ettiquette, or frankly, the omission of many things considered 'manners', but i feel bad when I transgress in a way that causes some one else discomfort. (which I do by mistake daily I think, on line!)

ab.da54

lostinrates wrote: »

My very first post reminded that the test of good manners is the tolerance of others' lack of them.

It's the one I find hardest, particularly on the Internet. E.g. Is the mention of that in itself putting people down? Is your post critising others looking down on people whose posts have struck you as seeming that way? It's all very difficult to interpret sometimes!

As regards different cultures, I fundamentally accept that, and as someone who has moved between cultures since childhood I have to say its Ettiquette that taught me the 'manners' that are deemed appropriate in the societies I have moved into.

One could even suggest its a lack of consideration, or manners, not to research basic ettiquettes of cultures we move into or holiday in, because understanding the most grevious transgressions which might be not considered for us allow us to move among other cultures or societies causing least offence.

I look down on nobody for lack of ettiquette, or frankly, the omission of many things considered 'manners', but i feel bad when I transgress in a way that causes some one else discomfort. (which I do by mistake daily I think, on line!)

Yes, you are right, lostinrates. It can be difficult to interpret sometimes, whereas, others, it's clear as day, however, I can see how people can interpret posts in a way they were not meant to be

catkins

I am in my late 50's so was brought up in strict times. All sitting at the table, no elbows on the table, could not leave until everyone had finished and you had to ask to leave the table. Certainly never eating in the street.

Me and OH don't always sit at the table to eat. I do like to and we do when we have a roast dinner (no I don't know why lol!) and if people come round and eat. OH likes to watch tv while he eats so we have trays on our lap. He works long hours and is out of the house some days from about 7am until 8 or 9pm so I can't begrudge him watching a bit of tv when eating - you can't see the tv from the table. If he is later than 8 I eat before him often anyway.

We will sometimes get things like fish and chips if we have a day out at the seaside. We do sit on a bench and eat though. We both really prefer doing that to sitting inside a cafe eating even if it is a chilly day.

I have to eat frequently because I suffer from low blood sugar so have been known to eat a cereal bar or similar in the street but even all these years later feel a bit guilty.

I dislike seeing people eating with their mouths open but would never say anything to them. What I think is very rude is using a phone, either to speak or text, when sitting eating in a restaurant. I also hate it when people answer their phone when being served in a shop. Loads of times I have seen people in restaurants spend the entire meal using their phones - couples, groups of people, all using their phones. I guess if they all think it is ok that's up to them but I find it very rude.

Not sure if throwing litter and spitting in the street count as manners but they both annoy and disgust me.


On and nearly forgot, please and thank you are important to me. You hold a door open for someone and they barge through never saying thank you or taking the door from you. I sometimes say "A thank you would be nice". Me and OH always say please and thank you to each other. He may ask if I would like a coffee and I always say yes please or no thank you. When I give him his meal he always thanks me for cooking it for him