Advice on gas usage, incorrect billing and checking please

eclareb

jalexa wrote: »

Well get started on the letter without delay. As you have described it this is an open and shut case because the boiler gas rate and the pipework design capacity is a matter of fact, and the pipework is demonstrably inadequate.

Just as an update... the saga continues...
After arguing with Worcester, managed to get a second engineer to come and look at the boiler. He got reading of 5mbar at the boiler. He was a lot more helpful and changed the part inside and rated the boiler.... end result I was still cut off!

The WB engineer rang my installer who made no effort to argue or query his findings!!

I have Gas Safe coming to do inspection tomorrow.

Lo and behold, got a call from the engineer wanting to come first thing to 'look at the pipework', first time he's mentioned this without also mentioning payment for this!!
Watch this space...

Thanks for the table you sent, I will be using it to jog his memory!

eclareb

Gas Safe inspector came yesterday.

My installer had arrived in the am with intention of changing one stretch of pipe. Unfortunately this wasnt possible and after lifting floors in 4 different rooms, were still left scratching their heads.

GS inpect is going to issue a notice to give the installer 3 weeks to change part of the piping (not all) to 28mm.

There was a lot of attempting to 'chummy' the inspector along during the visit by the installer and his team. He also told me that the way they had been checking the boiler function wasnt right. (Maybe they should have listened to me when I advised that the Worcester engineer hadnt run the hot water when he was checking the full working pressure of the boiler, instead of just sniggering!) I also used the table of the pipe dimensions... their response was 'Ive been doing this 22 years, I dont need a table'! All that from an engineer that was endorsed by Worcester Bosch!

The engineer then sent me a series of text in the evening saying that I should pay for the materials for him to put it right.

Ive told him that I dont consider it my responsiblity to put the job right! And Im also massively financially disadvantaged because Ive paid inflated gas bill for the last 12months.

His response this morning is your boiler is over due its service!!

penrhyn

Shirley if the gas flow was restricted to the boiler then removing the restriction would result in more gas being used not less or have |I missed something somewhere?

eclareb

penrhyn wrote: »

Shirley if the gas flow was restricted to the boiler then removing the restriction would result in more gas being used not less or have |I missed something somewhere?

It seems that the boiler has been undergassed, but in order for this model to work at its optimum it needs to be able to reach a certain level of operation and will then work at its most economical. With the restrictions, its never had any chance of reaching this level and therefore continues to draw on the gas unnecessarily and thats the reason usage is increased.

jalexa

eclareb wrote: »

The engineer then sent me a series of text in the evening saying that I should pay for the materials for him to put it right.

IMO there are no grounds for you to pay more. You accepted an open market quote in good faith with the expectation that the scope was to applicable standards.

Regarding the other extra costs, my strong advice - for the moment - is to focus exclusively on getting your pipework upgraded at no cost.

If the "3 week" demand is not achieved return to Gas Safe without further contact with the installer.

Be wary about signing you are satisfied (if you are not). The "test" needs to be that for full boiler output the pressure drop is no more than 1mBar.

eclareb

jalexa wrote: »

IMO there are no grounds for you to pay more. You accepted an open market quote in good faith with the expectation that the scope was to applicable standards.

Regarding the other extra costs, my strong advice - for the moment - is to focus exclusively on getting your pipework upgraded at no cost.

If the "3 week" demand is not achieved return to Gas Safe without further contact with the installer.

Thanks
TBH I dont have the time to try and recoup the costs for the gas, I just want the job finishing properly and to look forward to us being warm this winter... its an exciting prospect!

I understand that he would chance it and ask me to pay for the repairs, but its annoying that he persisted with this line after I had told him no to his face and then again via text.

His parting shot first thing this morning was to say the boiler was over-due its service. Which it wasnt at the beginning of this ordeal.

eclareb

jalexa wrote: »

Be wary about signing you are satisfied (if you are not). The "test" needs to be that for full boiler output the pressure drop is no more than 1mBar.

thanks for that, point noted!:)

blue_skies

Wow. I could have written most of this about our own situation... Came across this googling to try and work out what is wrong in our house!! Get these similarities......

- we had an unreliable, but not old combi boiler. We swapped it to a Worcester Bosch in feb this year
- we DID have 'high usage' before, but it's increased 6% since the new boiler, not gone down, which makes no sense as before the swap I was home all day and now I'm not
- during the estimate for the swap, one of the four plumbers mentioned the narrow piping and distance to the meter, the others didn't, and for whatever reasons (I can't recall) we happened to use one of the ones who didn't upgrade the piping (hindsight is a great thing eh?)
- we only run the heating, combi (so no tank of water) 3 bed terrace house with thermostat set to 18, plus we have open fires used in the winter. Heating on 4 hours oer day max in winter.
-our dual fuel bill is £200 a month, and our annual usage is 33,000 kw per year. Our good friend neighbours whose house we are in and out of, same supplier, heating on for about the same time, much less efficient boiler, 11,000 kw per year?!!!!!!!!

The narrow pipe and distance from the meter rings so true...... So can you reiterate, who do I speak to first? Worcester Bosch? Gas safe? I did contact the company who installed the boiler but they said they won't do anything without further checks that other things are fine (such as the meter) but we have a smart meter and have checked baseline with boiler and hob switched off, and that indicates zero use?

Any advice appreciated!

eclareb

blue_skies wrote: »

Wow. I could have written most of this about our own situation... Came across this googling to try and work out what is wrong in our house!! Get these similarities......

- we had an unreliable, but not old combi boiler. We swapped it to a Worcester Bosch in feb this year
- we DID have 'high usage' before, but it's increased 6% since the new boiler, not gone down, which makes no sense as before the swap I was home all day and now I'm not
- during the estimate for the swap, one of the four plumbers mentioned the narrow piping and distance to the meter, the others didn't, and for whatever reasons (I can't recall) we happened to use one of the ones who didn't upgrade the piping (hindsight is a great thing eh?)
- we only run the heating, combi (so no tank of water) 3 bed terrace house with thermostat set to 18, plus we have open fires used in the winter. Heating on 4 hours oer day max in winter.
-our dual fuel bill is £200 a month, and our annual usage is 33,000 kw per year. Our good friend neighbours whose house we are in and out of, same supplier, heating on for about the same time, much less efficient boiler, 11,000 kw per year?!!!!!!!!

The narrow pipe and distance from the meter rings so true...... So can you reiterate, who do I speak to first? Worcester Bosch? Gas safe? I did contact the company who installed the boiler but they said they won't do anything without further checks that other things are fine (such as the meter) but we have a smart meter and have checked baseline with boiler and hob switched off, and that indicates zero use?

Any advice appreciated!

Well at least you have seen this now and it may help, its taken me weeks of google, advice and numerous phone calls to get to the point Im at now.

To save time and possible call out charge, Id go straight to Gas Safe. I contacted them and said i definitely wanted an inspection, but wasnt sure I wanted to complain. They guy that came out was really good to deal with. As I had been advised previously 'he's there for you and not the installer'. They will come and inspect sooner rather than later (mine was within 3 days) if you say there is a safety issue. My gas level was so low at the boiler its was 'unbelievable' by some. He wont lift floor boards to check you old pipes etc, but will do checks on the new work thats been done by your installer (and yours is more recent than mine) and he will test the standing and working pressures of the boiler. If its not as it should be then he will contact your installer for the work to be put right.

My installer was here on the morning that the GS insp came. They had lifted floorboards up and so he was able to see the 15mm pipe. Theres a handy table supplied by jalexa on this thread that outlines the gauge of the pipe that should be used in relation to the distance from the meter to the boiler and its route etc. Have a look at that.

My installer tried to get me to pay for the correction to be done. I discussed this with the GS inspector. GS advice was that once the installer has signed the work off and walked away its his responsiblity. So if its found not to be correct at a later date, he should put it right. Gas Safe cant force him to do it though but they can remove his registration. He also said that although there is 22mm pipe at the meter and the new pipe work done in the installation was 22mm, the company had connected into 15mm pipe when they had done the work, so they couldnt claim that they didnt know it was there. - This may be the same for you? I overheard the boss of the company saying he felt sick when he got the phone call to say GS were at my house...... The inspector has now told my installer that he is going to come and see other installations that he has done recently to check they are up to spec! And he had 3 weeks to do the remedial work on mine - which was done last friday. It was a real nightmare of a job to get the pipe in, I have mostly tiled floors downstairs, but now have brand new sleeved 28mm pipe (because of the distance) !!! yipee.

Hope this helps.

blue_skies

Brilliant, thank you. I'm going to call them later.

For us the distance was mentioned during the estimates. Our meter is in the cellar, probably 20+m from the boiler; through the cellar, up the stairs, up the kitchen ceiling, through the floorboards, right through to the back of the house and down into the utility which once upon a time was the coal store at the end of the garden..... It's a long way! The good thing is that the route is mainly exposed because of the cellar part, and I'll be measuring he pipes when I am home later, but I know know KNOW that the piping was mentioned by one of the installers who came to do estimates..... One suggested doing it, another insisted..... If only I had queried further about it.

The old boiler for us would also have been the same, which it was. The alarm bells only started ringing at the end of this summer when we started using more gas, with a more efficient new boiler, and yet the bills had gone up even over the summer when the usage is tiny. If its gone up a small % over the summer, what on earth will the winter repercussions be?

I really feel that even if we have the heating on 24/7 in the size of house we have, we couldn't be running up those sorts of useages.

I'm very grateful for this thread, and will report back accordingly!!