Girl Guides membership - our daughter cannot join?

Jojo_the_Tightfisted

poet123 wrote: »

But currently as an organisation it has not done so. So, the Promise remains and with it the dilemma for this particular Leader.

Nobody complained when our pack did it for the kids who weren't comfortable with promising to serve a God they didn't believe existed - or one their families didn't recognise as they had other ones. I don't think anybody even noticed some children said My Duty/To serve the Queen instead of the published version, despite there being some very religious people present for their daughters' promise ceremonies.

Or perhaps, despite their own beliefs, they did notice but were secure with the fact that other families are different and respected that.


Whatever, the sky didn't fall in, nobody got cast into the sixth pit of Hell and no seven year was refused entry for having their own beliefs that did not entail a higher power or other such stuff.

poet123

Jojo_the_Tightfisted wrote: »

Nobody complained when our pack did it for the kids who weren't comfortable with promising to serve a God they didn't believe existed - or one their families didn't recognise as they had other ones. I don't think anybody even noticed some children said My Duty/To serve the Queen instead of the published version, despite there being some very religious people present for their daughters' promise ceremonies.

Or perhaps, despite their own beliefs, they did notice but were secure with the fact that other families are different and respected that.


Whatever, the sky didn't fall in, nobody got cast into the sixth pit of Hell and no seven year was refused entry for having their own beliefs that did not entail a higher power or other such stuff.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but if this Leader is not comfortable with that and the Guiding Association have not changed their policies, does she not have a right to have that respected too?

Jojo_the_Tightfisted

poet123 wrote: »

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but if this Leader is not comfortable with that does she not have a right to have that respected too?

Because a bit of discomfort for an adult, compared to rejecting a small child and the effect upon her, is minor.


We're not talking about two fully grown adults squabbling here, we're talking about a little girl pushed away for not having the same belief system in place as a person in authority over her - plenty of deeply religious people refer to science as a belief or religion of its own, but then won't recognise it as a belief system when it doesn't suit them to do so.

And, thinking about it, that means Buddhists can't join, as the Buddha wasn't a God.

poet123

Jojo_the_Tightfisted wrote: »

Because a bit of discomfort for an adult, compared to rejecting a small child and the effect upon her, is minor.
.

You would view it as "discomfort" the Leader probably views it as compromising her principles. I think it would have been better if she had not asked the child, but she did, and now faces this dilemma. I suspect this is not the first time this has happened, her views are probably well known.

skivenov

Welshwoofs wrote: »

Why does it matter whether or not someone believes that we were created by a 'higher force'. What bearing does it possibly have on making cupcakes, helping old ladies cross roads and tying knots (or whatever it is that Guides do these days)

Because those, plus rubbing boy scouts together and making woggles (and a fair few more interestting things that everyone always seems to miss), are the vehicles by which we encourage the Physical, Spiritual and Emotional development of the young people. Hopefully, this results in turning some good people out into society at the end of it.

Having been around Scouting long enough to see members come in as 6 year old Beaver Scouts and now know the same people as they're pursuing careers, settling down and having kids, I'd say, suprisingly, it quite often seems to work.

Lavendyr

poet123 wrote: »

Singing hymns is different to standing up in a ceremony and making a promise. Nothing to do with religion per se imo, just the understanding that the promise ( any promise, by definition) means something and that a promise is something to be thought about and meant.

This. I know so many people perfectly comfortable with singing hymns in church or wherever, who would never consider saying the words of the Nicene or Apostles' Creeds. A hymn is just a song. A promise, or creed, is a personal statement.

Being brought up by a non-religious family meant I would never have been allowed anywhere near the Girl Guides or Brownies or anything like that when I was younger. I did feel a bit left out as a lot of my friends went along (but then, a lot of my friends also went to church together - and to be fair, I felt a bit left out of that, too).

Instead my mum sent me to the Woodcraft Folk - http://www.woodcraft.org.uk/ - LOVED every minute of this group and would wholly recommend it. And no religious statement or promise required - their mission statement is one of co-operation and equality.

kingfisherblue

Woodcraft Folk looks great, but there are few groups in comparison to Guiding. For example, nothing between Liverpool and Manchester, but in my area of St. Helens we have three Rainbow units, five Brownie units, a guide unit and a Senior Section unit. That's just South East St. Helens, so in terms of availability, there are far more Guiding units. Also, Woodcraft is for both boys and girls, but many girls have said that they enjoy the 'girl only' space that is available through Guiding.

There's no reason that children can't enjoy both if there are units in their area though.

skivenov

I'm not going to argue against that, most youth organisations exist for a similar purpose, and over the years I've worked with most of them in one form or another.

I've spent a bit of time with instructors who've worked with Woodcraft Folk, and they've all been great at what they do and really nice people. I don't totally understand their organisation, so I would say that the concern I have is, particularly when it comes to adventurous activities, check they have properly qualified instructors and the appropriate insurance in place. I would imagine they do, but it's peace of mind.

daska

For those who dislike the formality of scouts and are inclined to knit their own yogurt the Woodcraft Folk should be a good match. In my local group they relied quite heavily on parental involvement and, as I was working hours that didn't fit with theirs, made me feel less than welcome. Not sure whether that's common to all of them but it's why DS1 went to scouts instead.

Fire_Fox

If we are going to say Guides should be more inclusive to atheists should they also accept boys?