Girl Guides membership - our daughter cannot join?

Mrs_Arcanum

poet123 wrote: »

I think you are missing the point and/or assigning a meaning which is not the intended one.

It is however somewhat disingenuous to have fairy symbolism coupled with a Christian faith based group.

I was a Gnome in Brownies & desperately wanted to be an Elf.

Jojo_the_Tightfisted

poet123 wrote: »

I think you are missing the point and/or assigning a meaning which is not the intended one.

No, I'm not.

They performed a magical ritual, which revealed the child to be the real house Brownie. The performing of the ritual was OK, it's a fundamental of the organisation's origins - but at the same time, some intolerant leaders treat it as part of their duties to exclude tiny children for not being religious.


It's the hypocrisy that stands out.



But thanks for telling me I didn't understand it.




We had pixies, gnomes, elves and sprites, by the way. Traditional brownie six names.

Welshwoofs

poet123 wrote: »

You cannot(with any integrity) take a vow which includes the words "My God" if you don't accept the concept or the reality of it.

Why not? I had to stand in school and sing hymns and say prayers that meant absolutely nothing to me and kids still do that in schools up and down the country every day of the week.

It's just an activity club for kids....it's not akin to entering a monastic order IMO.

I very much doubt that 'the promise' means much to most Brownies/Guides other than being something that you simply 'say' because you're in the Brownies/Guides. Not many people are devoutly religious these days....

poet123

Person_one wrote: »

When I was in Brownies the 'sixes' were all named after mythical beings too. Pixies, elves, sprites etc.

At the time guiding started fairies and pixies were heavily discussed in chidren's literature so it was a simple and known choice for the units.

Jojo_the_Tightfisted wrote: »

No, I'm not.

They performed a magical ritual, which revealed the child to be the real house Brownie. The performing of the ritual was OK, it's a fundamental of the organisation's origins - but at the same time, some intolerant leaders treat it as part of their duties to exclude tiny children for not being religious.


It's the hypocrisy that stands out.



But thanks for telling me I didn't understand it.




We had pixies, gnomes, elves and sprites, by the way. Traditional brownie six names.

Your implication that it was a pagan ritual was erroneous. The child was revealed as the helpful one. The ritual was more a childish turning game that anything with pagan overtones. Maybe you misrepresented it rather than misunderstood it?

poet123

Welshwoofs wrote: »

Why not? I had to stand in school and sing hymns and say prayers that meant absolutely nothing to me and kids still do that in schools up and down the country every day of the week.

It's just an activity club for kids....it's not akin to entering a monastic order IMO.

I very much doubt that 'the promise' means much to most Brownies/Guides other than being something that you simply 'say' because you're in the Brownies/Guides. Not many people are devoutly religious these days....

Singing hymns is different to standing up in a ceremony and making a promise. Nothing to do with religion per se imo, just the understanding that the promise ( any promise, by definition) means something and that a promise is something to be thought about and meant.

Welshwoofs

poet123 wrote: »

The ritual was more a childish turning game that anything with pagan overtones. Maybe you misrepresented it rather than misunderstood it?

Or perhaps an originally christian organisation simply hijacked some of the 'nice bits' from paganism (as christianity did with practically every significant date in their religious calendar) because they rightly recognised that pure christian rites are just a wee bit boring?

kingfisherblue

Guiding is not a Christian organisation, despite many thinking it is. When it began, in 1910, there were very few other religions in Britain and the founders were Christians. Also, many units (we're not known as troops), meet in churches because they are inexpensive and can be very supportive. I know of a Brownie unit in my area that pays £70 a year to the church for use of their large hall and kitchen for their meetings, and another that until reccently was meeting in a school about two miles away at a cost of £15 a night. As a voluntary organisation that charges a low amount in subs, obviously the church hall is a more attractive option as it has a low rent. It also has decent storage and is not reliant on caretaker's hours, as many guiders are keyholders for their venues.

Regarding the Promise, in my area, the population is predominantly white, with few ethnic minorities and people from other cultural backgrounds. In the 2001 census, St. Helens was described as the most Christian town in the country. I haven't actually come across anyone who doesn't believe in a god, and for most it is the Christian God. I do know that other units have members who believe in other gods or who different spiritual beliefs. A few years ago, Muslim parents were reluctant to allow their daughters to join Guiding, as they preceived it to be a Christian organisation. Guiding magazine published an article about two units, set up in schools, that had predominantly Muslim girls as members (I think there was one in Lancashire and one in the Home Counties).

Guiding is not about knitting and making cups of tea. I've been a guider for about 13 years and can't knit, nor do I have any desire to learn. We do show the girls how to safely make a hot drink though, just as we show them many other skills. Yesterday we had a day out, with a zip wire, assault course, blindfold trail, archery, etc - it was a lovely day, but the mud was thick and messy, just how the girls like it! Guides camped out the night before, although Rainbows and Brownies joined them on the day.

My Brownies still have a toadstool, and the sixes are named after the fairy folk. They could have chosen Moles, Foxes, Squirrels, etc, but our unit prefers the traditional names. I'm known as Brown Owl, as are many other leaders, but officially that name ceased to exist in 1968.

Finally, units are run by volunteers. We do it because we enjoy it, and it isn't just an hour a week as often thought by parents. Just take into account the training that we have to attend, the meetings, planning the programme, arranging trips, contacting visitors to come to the unit, keeping accounts, researching information, buying resources, chasing up parents who want their children to go on a trip but haven't yet apid or filled in the required paperwork.......

But at the end of the day, we have girls who have enjoyed the acitivities that we offer, we have parents who want their children to attend, and despite the work we put into it, we also have fun ourselves (most of the time!)

Jojo_the_Tightfisted

poet123 wrote: »

At the time guiding started fairies and pixies were heavily discussed in chidren's literature so it was a simple and known choice for the units.



Your implication that it was a pagan ritual was erroneous. The child was revealed as the helpful one. The ritual was more a childish turning game that anything with pagan overtones. Maybe you misrepresented it rather than misunderstood it?

Childish turning games are commonly based upon rituals from pre-Christian times. If, outside of Brownie Guide promise ceremonies, a child were to tell the pastor of any of the local churches that she had been told to go to a pool/magic mirror at midnight, turn three times whilst reciting a charm to bring forth a magical spirit to work in the house, the reaction would be of abject horror.

Even though (as it's all, in my opinion, complete tosh), nothing happened other than her seeing herself reflected in the water/mirror - it would still be taken as an incredibly dangerous act.




It's just staggering hypocrisy. It was simply assumed that children would be Christians when the organisations were formed a century ago. That was altered when it was realised the organisation had spread worldwide. It was never a church organisation. It was never a preaching, recruiting organisation. It adapted to changing times, albeit quite slowly in some respects - and it must adapt now. All it need do is, like some leaders already do, is quietly drop the words - 'To my God' - in favour of 'Do my Duty'.

And then there is no harm done whatsoever.

poet123

Jojo_the_Tightfisted wrote: »

Childish turning games are commonly based upon rituals from pre-Christian times. If, outside of Brownie Guide promise ceremonies, a child were to tell the pastor of any of the local churches that she had been told to go to a pool/magic mirror at midnight, turn three times whilst reciting a charm to bring forth a magical spirit to work in the house, the reaction would be of abject horror.

Even though (as it's all, in my opinion, complete tosh), nothing happened other than her seeing herself reflected in the water/mirror - it would still be taken as an incredibly dangerous act.




It's just staggering hypocrisy. It was simply assumed that children would be Christians when the organisations were formed a century ago. That was altered when it was realised the organisation had spread worldwide. It was never a church organisation. It was never a preaching, recruiting organisation. It adapted to changing times, albeit quite slowly in some respects - and it must adapt now. All it need do is, like some leaders already do, is quietly drop the words - 'To my God' - in favour of 'Do my Duty'.

And then there is no harm done whatsoever.

But currently as an organisation it has not done so. So, the Promise remains and with it the dilemma for this particular Leader.

balletshoes

Welshwoofs wrote: »

Why not? I had to stand in school and sing hymns and say prayers that meant absolutely nothing to me and kids still do that in schools up and down the country every day of the week.
It's just an activity club for kids....it's not akin to entering a monastic order IMO.

I very much doubt that 'the promise' means much to most Brownies/Guides other than being something that you simply 'say' because you're in the Brownies/Guides. Not many people are devoutly religious these days....

100% agree with this.