Wife won't allow our children to see grandparents

mrs_sparrow

Nicki, it wasn't, both the parents live in the UK, however, it is standard on a PCO regarding the passports and anyone with PR is able to put a restriction on the children from travelling overseas (this could even be a grandparent if they have PR) and the child is usually not allowed out of the country for more than 1 month as standard when a contact order is in place.

I think he is taking the right step in getting legal advice first before stepping in to do anything. Yes it costs money but then at least he knows legally where he stands.

I did also say that a PCO should be the very, very last resort as it would signal the end of his relationship.... however, it does depend on what crisis level this family are at right now and no, I do not think we are getting the full story. No parent should be living in fear of their children being removed to another country. That is just nasty and spiteful by the other parent and it shows how controlling they are and they are the actions of a bully that cannot get their own way.

If this situation was reversed and it was a mother living in fear of her children being taken by the dad we would be offering her advice on how to get out to a refuge and be safe, wouldn't we? The same service just does not exist for men apart from pointless contact orders that can be broken and Social Services departments who seek to keep the kids with the mother, even if she abused the man in a relationship and there is proof. As far as SS are concerned the man is always the guilty one. It is disgraceful.

*sigh* sorry, I KNOW this has gone off track again so apologies - just this thread came at a difficult time. I just find it incredibly sad that gap of recognition of abuse between male/female victims is as wide as ever and the same help should be there for men and women. Also, if a women is being abused they get free legal help no matter how much they earn - men do not, they have to pay for it, so ultimately they don't do anything about it and suffer in silence. It's a terribly sad and unfair situation. Apologies once again, it's a subject that is quite dear to my heart having watched several male friends going through things like this and losing their kids. I am sorry to scare you into thinking this is what you had to do, I was saying it is the very last resort though and always have done from the minute I mentioned it, however, you should not be living with this fear anyhow.

Good luck with moving forward, I hope that you find the help that you need.

Nicki

mrs_sparrow wrote: »

Nicki, it wasn't, both the parents live in the UK, however, it is standard on a PCO regarding the passports and anyone with PR is able to put a restriction on the children from travelling overseas (this could even be a grandparent if they have PR) and the child is usually not allowed out of the country for more than 1 month as standard when a contact order is in place.

Maybe I am not explaining myself very well mrs-sparrow, as you, and maybe OP, are not understanding what I am saying.

Anyone with PR can apply for a PSO and get one. However, this just means they have a piece of paper in their hand, not that there is a mechanism in place in all cases to actually stop the child being taken abroad.

PSOs are not registered with Immigration. It isn't like that an alarm will go off if a child who is the subject of a PSO presents at an airport or port and the child will be prevented from getting on board. That would only happen if the police had entered an all ports watch, which they only do for a maximum of a few days when a credible and imminent threat to remove is notified.

Having a PSO will mean that the UK passports may have to be surrendered and lodged somewhere secure. But OP has already done this so the PSO doesn't help him in those situations. If foreign passports had been issued already, they MIGHT be also covered by the PSO, but no passports have been issued yet.

So, if OP in this case gets a PSO, but his wife is actually determined that she is going to abscond with the children, all she needs to do is to apply for the passports via her embassy. Her country of origin doesn't have a treaty with the UK (OP says) so the UK courts have no jurisdiction to order the embassy not to issue passports and the government of that country is very unlikely to accede to a request not to issue them. Wife and kids turn up at the airport, all with passports in the same name issued by the same country, get on a plane and fly off to the country of origin, and when they land, because there is no treaty, OP cannot compel them to be returned to him under agreed law between the UK and that country, but must make an application for them to return in the wife's country of origin, which will be governed by the law of that country and may well not succeed and will be highly stressful. Yes, what she has done is illegal under UK law, but as she isn't in the UK by that time so what? Her country does not have jurisdiction to punish her for something done against the law of another country and in the absence of a treaty, the UK can't extradite her and punish her here either.

In his particular circumstances which are thankfully quite unusual, all that a PSO will achieve for OP if any of this happens, is that his wife could not return to the UK with the children for a visit of any kind, because if she did she would be liable to sanctions for breaching the PSO.

All the reasons why a PSO is of very limited, or no help, in this case, are because the wife comes from a country with no treaty on child abduction with the UK. If she came from a country which did have such a treaty, or was removing the children to such a country, then a PSO would work quite well. This is because they work by taking the passports away from the person who is likely to abscond (but they can't do that here) and by being able to get the other country to send the children straight back if by some miracle the first line of defence fails (also not possible here).

The concern I have is that if Eric were to actually apply for and get a PSO (he could get one even though it wouldn't help him if the wife were to take the children to her country of origin), this could enrage a wife (who is already responding to challenges to her with threats to abscond) to actually go ahead and leave with the kids. This is why I am very keen for him to think very carefully about this and decide what is the safest thing for him to do.

I don't dispute that there are circumstances in which a PSO is absolutely the right thing to do. But, I do think it creates a serious risk here and I am concerned that because you keep pushing it as a solution to his problems that he may decide that this is the advice he would prefer to accept, rather than thinking through all the risks with an expert in the field (which I am not but nor are you!) and picking the safest option.

Its a bit like coming onto an internet forum and saying you have discovered a lump in your breast. One poster tells you not to worry, take a drug which she has known to work well for relatives of hers with cancer, and wait for 2 months to see if it works before worrying and seeing a doctor. Another poster advises that you should see the doctor immediately and press for a biopsy under general anaesthetic, then take any treatment suggested. The temptation would be to accept the advice which you have been told will have a better outcome for much least pain, even though actually that advice might not be the safest advice and end up with disastrous consequences.

daska

Just to back up what Nicki is saying here's a quote from the Reunite advice that we both posted links to:

Inform your solicitor. He or she can then make arrangements to obtain
a court order to prevent the removal of a child from England & Wales.
Please note, you do NOT need a Prohibited Steps Order, even though
your solicitor may recommend one – this is merely a Civil Order, which
does not confer powers on Police.

stressed-eric

Thanks Nicki and Daska for the link to the Reunite document, this was very useful and informative. I will definitely follow up on some of the advice it contains.

I still can't honestly believe that my wife would actually go through with this, but then how many other parents have said the same thing about their partners to their cost ?

All the best

Eric

whitewing

Eric,

I really hope you can take steps to protect your relationship with your children. I also hope that you and your wife can work together to get your marriage back on track.

Nicki

Good luck Eric. If it helps my SIL used to threaten to take the kids "home" when things weren't going well, but when the marriage ultimately broke up, she and the kids stayed and leaving the country was never mentioned.

That being said, I hope the marriage can be saved (if that's what you want) and that your wife will relent and repair things with your parents to the extent that they can at least spend time with the kids.