Wife won't allow our children to see grandparents

mrs_sparrow

Nicki wrote: »

Really? In his first post he says all he wants is for things to get back to the way they were (ie him happily married and his parents seeing the kids) and in later posts he says he can't sleep with worry that she will divorce him over this issue and move back to her home country with their kids. I can't see anywhere where he says he is only staying with her for the sake of the children.

stressed-eric wrote: »

I can't see anyway out of this. My wife is unlikely to relent, and the more we argue the more entrenched she becomes. If I bring the kids to my parents she has threatened to take them out of the country. If we divorce, it is likely that she would get custody of the children, and then I wouldn't see them at all. This is all I can think about, and it's affecting my home life and work. I never thought I could be so miserable.

Sorry, but to say this it is clear he has thought about divorcing her but will not as he will not see the children anymore. You don;t think about divorce if you are happily married, do you? Maybe we have both misread something - but either way he has a deep fear they will be taken. So much so that he has secured their UK passports. That is a huge step to take.

He asked for help, I've just told him to be wary, that's all. He can secure the kids other passports with a PSO but it will mean the end of his marriage, I did say those things. However, I cannot see how she can apply for them without his permission. He could try speaking to the Embassy.

A PSO costs around £200 and you can apply at any local court, if you need to take a solicitor or them to do the forms for you then that will obviously cost more money. She need not know you have applied until the order is actually in place then she would have to go back to court to fight this, however, it can have a have a time limit imposed on it and then you have to go back to court and apply for an extension. If the court feels it is needed they will grant the extension, if not, they will not and the order will expire.

Yorkie1

Purely on the education / fun element, and stereotyping alert ...

Many Asian cultures put a huge stress on the importance of gaining an education. I had a friend at University whose family wouldn't have permitted her to do any course other than law, medicine or dentistry.

And, naturally, the amount of work needed to gain access to those sorts of courses / careers was massive - with the risk that any time away from the studies was 'wasted' time.

I recognise there are a lot of angry words and wider, difficult, conversations going on between Eric and his wife, but this may just be one of the elements behind it.

janiebquick

When my twins were one year old their only surviving grandparent - my husband's stepmother - announced that she was unable to come and visit as she 'had too many evening classes to go to'. From that point onwards, I refused to visit her and she never came to visit us.

There may be more to this than we are being told.

Nicki

OP, I hope you can find a way to resolve things with your wife in a way which you are all happy with. Maybe some mediation or family counselling to include your wife and your parents might be helpful?

You might find this factsheet helpful, if you haven't already seen it:

http://www.reunite.org/edit/files/Prevention%20Guide%20E&W.pdf

You have been advised at some length to apply for a PSO, but I am not convinced that this is good advice, and am worried it would make your situation worse rather than better. A PSO is a civil order which only means that if your wife were to take the children abroad, and then at any point return to the UK, she could face sanctions. It is not an order registered or lodged with Immigration control so doesn't actually prevent her leaving the country with them if she has passports issued by her own embassy, and if her country of birth isn't a signatory of the Hague Convention as you already know the situation is difficult. If you knew when she planned to travel, you could have a watch put on ports and airports by the police but these are short term measures and not open-ended. As mrs-sparrow acknowledges to apply for the order would inflame the situation between you and your wife, so I would think very carefully before taking this action, if you are in fact now considering it, and get advice from professionals with experience in this field. The worst possible outcome is to push your wife to take the step you most fear by going on the attack rather than trying to negotiate an agreement.

red_devil

Your wife maybe a grandparent one day ask her how she would like it if she was frozen out?

marisco_2

stressed-eric wrote: »

She can't legally take the children out of the country without permission, but her country of birth hasn't subscribed to the Hague convention on the civil aspects of vhild abduction. I'm no lawyer, but i understand this to mean that the courts would be of no help to me in getting the children back to this country.

Also I have taken steps to secure the children's UK passports, but there's nothing to stop her getting them passports from her embassy. She basically holds all the cards, and this is what keeps me awake at night.

Thanks again.

What a terrible way to have to live. This strain and worry could start to effect your health. It seems to me that your wife wants everything her way and is not willing to meet anyone half way. She sounds like a difficult person and not easy to get close to at all. To react as you described she does whenever you try to address this awful situation with her speaks volumes. She can stay in control by shouting and screaming at you and not bothering to consider your feelings and views. That is not how you conduct yourself if you have any feelings for your partner.

It is admirable that your wife is very focused on the childrens education. However it is naive to think being serious and academic all the time produces a well rounded intelligient child. Children need to develop socially and learn how to have fun. Having a healthy and regular relationship with its family is very important. Some of my favourite childhood memories are of times spent with my grandparents. My nan taught me to cook, many happy sunday mornings were spent in her kitchen getting messy and having a laugh making cakes. As I got older she showed me how to make main meals. Some of my best cooking and recipes are down to her to this day. My grandad taught me to fish, fly kites, ride a skate board. All things I now love passing on to my sons.

Your parents were seeing your children once a month. They had little time to be involved with all aspects of their life. They were barely given the chance to have any influence in their lives at all. Of course they wanted to take them out and have fun. What did your wife expect them to do, sit and do times tables with them or read with them!

You are in an emotionally abusive relationship as far as I am concerned and it will already be very damaging to you and your children. Seek legal advice and stop letting her treat you all like this.

stressed-eric

Thanks all, really appreciate the comments and suggestions and the effort people have made in replying. I'm genuinely touched, I've never posted anything to a forum before and wasn't sure if I'd get flamed or any responses.

I think the way forward is for me to get some legal advice, and take it from there. There is a local family solicitors who offer a fixed fee initial 1 hour consultation so I can do this just to find out where I stand legally.

It's good to know about the PSO, thanks to mrs_sparrow for making me aware of this, as I didn't know about it previously. It would be the final step for me, and one that I dearly hope won't be necessary.

If nothing else the responses here have provided me with a level of optimism that was lacking before, but I know it is ultimately up to my wife and I to resolve this situation amicably, or if this is not possible, to move on with our lives.

Thanks to all who took the time to reply, and wish you all the best.

DevilsAdvocate1

I have a difficult relatioinship with my MIL at times. Its little things that she does which make me feel like an outsider in my own home when she visits. For example, she will bring sweets for everyone, including her husband. Everyone that is, except me. Once she brought gloves for everyone, including her husband. Again, none for me. Its as though she is saying that I am not part of the family.

My husband realises this and about 6 months ago he told me that we did not have to see them again if that was what I wanted. I told him straight away that I definitely did not want that. Yes, I sometimes feel down after they've gone, but they are his parents and I would be gutted if my sons cut me out of their life.

I really feel for you, OP. I've no advice to offer but did not want to read and run.

LannieDuck

Could you have a gentle non-confrontational discussion with her about it, explain that it's important to you for your parents to see the children, and ask what would make her happy with that?

Maybe she doesn't want your parents to take them out for the day, or maybe she wants to be included in activities that they all do that day. But would she be willing to suggest a way out of the stale-mate?

Nicki

stressed-eric wrote: »

It's good to know about the PSO, thanks to mrs_sparrow for making me aware of this, as I didn't know about it previously. It would be the final step for me, and one that I dearly hope won't be necessary.

Eric, I really urge you to read the link I posted if you haven't already, as it gives chapter and verse about what is and isn't possible to protect yourself in your situation taking into account all the factors involved. One size does not fit all, and I strongly suspect the case mrs-sparrow quoted where she had seen the paperwork involved a threat to take the children to a country where there were reciprocal child abduction protections.

You said your wife hasn't got passports from her embassy for the kids yet. A UK court does not have the power to order a foreign sovereign state not to issue a passport for a citizen with dual nationality (though it could ask a country with whom it has a treaty not to do so). This is a fundamental principle of international law, and at the forefront of the constitutions of just about every country in the world. So if you are correct that your wife's country has no such treaty with the UK (you haven't said on the thread where she is from) a PSO would not and could not prevent your wife from getting a passport for the children from her embassy after the order was granted and taking the children. Yes she would face sanctions from the UK if she ever came back to this country, but that doesn't either bring the children back or prevent them from leaving in the first place, and being put on notice that you have applied for this order might be the thing which pushes her over that edge.

If the children already had their foreign passports, your wife could be made to lodge them with the court, along with their UK passports which would give you some security, but that isn't the case here.

Do take proper advice from an expert in the field (make sure they understand that your wife's country of origin isn't a signatory to the Hague convention too) but slow, steady and measured is definitely the way to go here, and an impulsive decision to apply for a PSO taken in panic could be disastrous. As a solicitor myself (though not one practising in this area of law) I am aware that there is a huge range of abilities and expertise out there, so pick a solicitor carefully - ie one who advertises that they specifically deal with child abduction, not just one who deals with divorce and family law issues, and see someone at the firm with an appropriate level of seniority and expertise. This is definitely not the kind of case where you should go with the cheapest quote, or pay any attention to amateur but well meaning advice (I include myself in that by the way, as although I have checked out the parameters of a PSO from a number of online legal sources after reading this thread, it isn't something I've ever had to deal with professionally).