delicate subject - abortion

poet123

amus wrote: »

Are people more careful in Ireland where abortion is illegal?

I genuinely dont know but the prevalence of women buying potentially unsafe medication online to induce abortion suggests not.

I am not sure how that could be quantified. Do you have figures for the sales of the above medication? I would have thought they would be jealously guarded for obvious reasons.

giantmutantbroccoli

If you don't believe that abortion is morally wrong, and you agree that it is a choice that a woman should be able to make about her own body, then you cannot argue that a woman should only have so many abortions or that she "should" do this or that. It's her body and her choice - if you respect that fact, you should not then be judging her to be a bad or stupid person for the circumstances surrounding her abortion. Bluntly put, if you believe it's her choice, that makes it none of your business. It's none of your business why she needs the abortion. It's none of your business how many abortions she's had previously.

poet123

giantmutantbroccoli wrote: »

If you don't believe that abortion is morally wrong, and you agree that it is a choice that a woman should be able to make about her own body, then you cannot argue that a woman should only have so many abortions or that she "should" do this or that. It's her body and her choice - if you respect that fact, you should not then be judging her to be a bad or stupid person for the circumstances surrounding her abortion. Bluntly put, if you believe it's her choice, that makes it none of your business. It's none of your business why she needs the abortion. It's none of your business how many abortions she's had previously.

It is the business of society in terms of cost, and it is the business of healthcare professionals in terms of possible future health issues. Personally,, I think it is the business of anyone who "cares", not to prevent the abortion, but to see what the underlying issues are, unless of course you really believe that multiple abortion is normal or beneficial. This is about helping not hindering.

giantmutantbroccoli

It is the business of society in terms of cost,

Babies cost society more money than abortions do, especially unwanted babies.

and it is the business of healthcare professionals in terms of possible future health issues

You're quite right, it is absolutely the business of healthcare professionals who are involved a woman's care to look out for her health. I would hope that any healthcare professional involved in the care of a woman having an abortion would ensure that she is fully informed on all the risks and benefits.

I think it is the business of anyone who "cares", not to prevent the abortion, but to see what the underlying issues are

Right, and you're going to be able to do something about these "underlying issues" are you? You're going to be able to analyse them and present the results of your analysis to the medical community? Perhaps publish a peer-reviewed scientific paper on the topic to keep them informed? Or maybe you can pass on this valuable information to your patients? Of course, if you're not a medical professional, a doctor or a researcher of some kind, there is nothing useful you can do with your examination of the "underlying issues". All you are achieving here is helping to maintain an environment in which abortion is seen as as something that women should be ashamed of and feel bad for. That is hindering, not helping.
I repeat, it is none of your business why women have abortions or how many abortions they have, or even why they have more abortions than you think they ought to. It is nothing to do with you, unless you are involved in having or providing the abortion.

poet123

giantmutantbroccoli wrote: »

Babies cost society more money than abortions do, especially unwanted babies.

It is telling that you see that as the only other outcome. What about prevention? There would be a cost attached to that of course, but that would go down if successful.

giantmutantbroccoli wrote: »

You're quite right, it is absolutely the business of healthcare professionals who are involved a woman's care to look out for her health. I would hope that any healthcare professional involved in the care of a woman having an abortion would ensure that she is fully informed on all the risks and benefits.

So, it is someone's business then?

giantmutantbroccoli wrote: »

Right, and you're going to be able to do something about these "underlying issues" are you? You're going to be able to analyse them and present the results of your analysis to the medical community? Perhaps publish a peer-reviewed scientific paper on the topic to keep them informed? Or maybe you can pass on this valuable information to your patients? Of course, if you're not a medical professional, a doctor or a researcher of some kind, there is nothing useful you can do with your examination of the "underlying issues". All you are achieving here is helping to maintain an environment in which abortion is seen as as something that women should be ashamed of and feel bad for. That is hindering, not helping.

You really think I was talking about me doing this? Don't be so disingenuous, I was referring to the medical establishment and their role in reducing the incidence of multiple abortions and in researching the reasons for them. They may carry it out, but everyone has a stake in it.

With regard to the individuals feelings on abortion I am not responsible for that, but that is not a reason not to debate any issues which relate to it, either here or in real life.

giantmutantbroccoli wrote: »

I repeat, it is none of your business why women have abortions or how many abortions they have, or even why they have more abortions than you think they ought to. It is nothing to do with you, unless you are involved in having or providing the abortion.

I disagree, I am a member of society, a tax payer, a woman and I am entitled to have an opinion and express that opinion on any subject just as you are. If no one ever voiced an opinion change would never be effected.

Torry_Quine

poet123 wrote: »

You really believe that someone who has had five or more abortions would not benefit from some home truths re responsibility? You surprise me.

I said we shouldn't judge or condemn which is not the same as teaching responsibility at all. I do believe that some women are irresponsible but that in no way is the whole story.

giantmutantbroccoli

What about prevention?

At the point where a woman is considering an abortion, it is already too late for prevention.
If you want to promote safe and effective contraception use, that's great! Better sex education is a good idea for a great many reasons, as is encouraging proper contraception use. It saves the NHS money, it lowers people's risk of catching various STDs and it makes them less likely to have to deal with an unwanted or unexpected pregnancy.
You'll notice that these reasons are the reasons that are already commonly given as to why people should use contraception. Saying that it also prevents multiple abortions is completely redundant, and only a useful tack to take if your goal is not greater contraception use but to make women who have had more than one abortion feel bad about it.

You really think I was talking about me doing this? Don't be so disingenuous, I was referring to the medical establishment and their role in reducing the incidence of multiple abortions and in researching the reasons for them.

If you are only talking about medical professionals, then why did you say

I think it is the business of anyone who "cares", not to prevent the abortion, but to see what the underlying issues are,

I am a member of society, a tax payer, a woman and I am entitled to have an opinion and express that opinion on any subject just as you are. If no one ever voiced an opinion change would never be effected.

And I am entitled to tell you that your opinion is wrong and harmful to others, and that I don't like it. I'm a woman. I'm a tax-payer, not that that is in any way relevant to this discussion. I'm a member of "society"... whatever that means. Opinions aren't sacrosanct. As for change, I would love to see it become socially unacceptable for people to express their opinions on what complete strangers do to or with their bodies. I don't care too much if people want to tutt and shake their heads when they pass a heavily tattooed body modder in the street, but given that abortion is already heavily stigmatised I do not believe that pointing at a particular category of abortion and saying "that's bad!" is of any use or help to anybody.

*max*

poet123 wrote: »

You really believe that someone who has had five or more abortions would not benefit from some home truths re responsibility? You surprise me.

You keep talking about "prevention", but it seems your view of it is heavily tainted by moral judgement.

Nobody is disagreeing that prevention is key, as has been said here repeatedly. However, there is an element of punishment and reproach in your version of it that sits very uneasily with me.

Women are not naughty kids who deserve "some home truths" (patronizing in the extreme, btw!), or to be sneered at in a time of need because you don't agree with what they're doing.

Prevention, yes. Judgement, no.

poet123

giantmutantbroccoli wrote: »

At the point where a woman is considering an abortion, it is already too late for prevention.

Obviously, but if it is apparent there is a trend then it should be flagged up for attention after the event.

giantmutantbroccoli wrote: »

If you want to promote safe and effective contraception use, that's great! Better sex education is a good idea for a great many reasons, as is encouraging proper contraception use. It saves the NHS money, it lowers people's risk of catching various STDs and it makes them less likely to have to deal with an unwanted or unexpected pregnancy.

That is already being done, how successful is open to debate. I think we need to go further for these women.

giantmutantbroccoli wrote: »

You'll notice that these reasons are the reasons that are already commonly given as to why people should use contraception. Saying that it also prevents multiple abortions is completely redundant, and only a useful tack to take if your goal is not greater contraception use but to make women who have had more than one abortion feel bad about it.

Greater contraception usage and an acknowledgement that there is such a thing as personal responsibility. I know that is unfashionable, but that doesn't mean it is not true.

giantmutantbroccoli wrote: »

If you are only talking about medical professionals, then why did you say

Because I am entitled to have an opinion about it, to care about the figures as do others on this thread. Just because I cannot personally make a difference does not mean I shouldn't care. I can't make a difference to civilians or soldiers dying in war, but I do have feelings about that.

giantmutantbroccoli wrote: »

And I am entitled to tell you that your opinion is wrong and harmful to others, and that I don't like it. I'm a woman. I'm a tax-payer, not that that is in any way relevant to this discussion. I'm a member of "society"... whatever that means.

You are certainly entitled to tell me (you believe) all those things, I have never suggested differently. It is your prerogative to hold that opinion just as it is mine to believe and express what I do. A forum is a place for diverse opinion, and adult debate, sometimes in a robust manner.

giantmutantbroccoli wrote: »

Opinions aren't sacrosanct. As for change, I would love to see it become socially unacceptable for people to express their opinions on what complete strangers do to or with their bodies. I don't care too much if people want to tutt and shake their heads when they pass a heavily tattooed body modder in the street, but given that abortion is already heavily stigmatised I do not believe that pointing at a particular category of abortion and saying "that's bad!" is of any use or help to anybody.

Opinions aren't sacrosanct. You miss my point if you think that I would categorise any abortion as bad per se, but to me it is undesirable on many levels to blythely accept multiple abortions if there are alternatives which could prevent that need. All for the want of offending the sensibilities of those closely involved.

Nothing is sacrosanct or beyond discussion, it may be emotive, it may be distasteful to hear other opinion which differs so much from your own, but such is life.

poet123

*max* wrote: »

You keep talking about "prevention", but it seems your view of it is heavily tainted by moral judgement.

Nobody is disagreeing that prevention is key, as has been said here repeatedly. However, there is an element of punishment and reproach in your version of it that sits very uneasily with me.

Women are not naughty kids who deserve "some home truths" (patronizing in the extreme, btw!), or to be sneered at in a time of need because you don't agree with what they're doing.

Prevention, yes. Judgement, no.

I take your point, but having something pointed out to us that others see clearly is sometimes necessary. Baldly, put on paper it may come across as harsh, obviously it would not be done in that manner, but for me a women on her fifth abortion may need to be helped to face the reasons for that and it is not always helpful to smile sweetly and say nothing, or worse, imply that there is no issue. It may come across as judging, but sometimes facing the judgement of others is what is needed. No condemnation though, that is counter productive and wrong.

That is not confined to this issue or to women, there will be times when we have all been brought up short by a comment and realised the truth of it and acted on it. I know I have. Judgements can be made for the right reasons and effect a positive outcome.