delicate subject - abortion

Errata

poet123 wrote: »

And rather patronising, as it seems to assume the poster concerned cannot report what she sees as offensive.

Or it could simply be taken as attention seeking showboating.

coolcait

Welshwoofs wrote: »

It's not strange logic at all, it's bleeding obvious. Being offended for yourself is a known - you know what upsets you. Being offended on behalf of someone else is just ridiculous. Jumping on a thread you've had no prior input in on a subject you state you have no interest in, purely to trumpet that you've reported the thread in case someone, somewhere is upset is...well ludicrous really.

I have to disagree.

I think it's possible to recognise when something may be 'offensive' - even though you're not offended yourself.

Under those circumstances, I'd agree with reporting whatever was potentially 'offensive'.

Declaring that you've reported it? It can have merit - it may stop a deluge of similar reports; then again it may encourage said deluge.

Declaring that you've reported something, whilst calling other posters [insert exclamation marks here] may undermine the reporter's personal position, but doesn't damage the principle.

IMO etc etc

likelyfran

starrystarry wrote: »

She might think she's being compassionate, might be doing it with the best of intentions, but...it just appears patronising to me.

This thread has been running for several days. Marywooyeah has been contributing willingly. If it becomes too upsetting for her I'm sure she's capable of saying so, or just leaving the discussion.

Has anyone actually asked marywooyeah if she wants to stop the discussion? Perhaps it's helping her to talk about this.

You can't join a discussion part way through then decide unilaterally that it's too upsetting for someone else so you're going to stop everyone from discussing it.

I was actually referring to reporting posts, not entire threads, but I didn't make that clear - apologies. I don't believe in threads getting closed down, but certain posts can be clearly nasty, unnecessary, and bullying and I think that's a good enough reason for anyone to press the abuse button.

Fire_Fox

coolcait wrote: »

Sorry, I probably wasn't clear enough in my comments. You put forward your personal opinion on [paraphrasing] 'enforcing contraception on people under 24 who are not in a stable relationship/trying for a baby/celibate'. I wondered how the idea of 'enforcement' in terms of sexual and reproductive health fits in with a [general/generic] 'viewpoint of pro-choice'. Not whether or not you personally identify with that viewpoint. Personally, I feel that enforcing contraception on people is a step towards eugenics - a word mentioned by another poster. Hence my reaction to the suggestion.

As noted above.

My personal viewpoint is that we need to do a lot more to ensure that people take proper care of themselves in terms of preventing the transmission of STIs and pregnancy - if they do not wish to be pregnant and do not wish to make someone else pregnant.

I do believe that people should take the time to read the information leaflet which comes in the box with their chosen contraceptive, or in the information given out by their 'contraception provider'. That to me is commonsense rather than perfection .

But, I also believe that those leaflets should be written in plain English. Put the warnings at the top, and the 'how it works' at the bottom.

We need to put far, far more effort into educating men about their responsibilities in using condoms; and just as much extra effort into educating women about the need to use condoms to protect against STIs, as well as using contraception to protect against unwanted pregnancies.

Yet, still I balk at the idea of enforced contraception.

Pro choice is a broad church like pro life. I can't speak for anyone else, only from my own experience of working in healthcare for over twenty years. Few in this country takes care of their health according to the guidelines, not in the wealthy south and not in areas of multiple deprivation. Health promotion has only a limited effect: we are still stuck at two to three portions of fruit and veg a day, reducing smoking is painfully slow despite LOADS of publicity including plain English and graphic images.

Seanymph

Many congratulations newcook. Funny how these things work out for timings isn't it.

I'm pleased your young friend has had time to think things through.

Welshwoofs

Humphrey10 wrote: »

"when are you going to settle down and have children?" "don't you feel your biological clock ticking?" "don't leave it too late" "how many children are you planning to have?" "I bet holding my baby is making you feel broody" etc. Questions such as these are not uncommon, as a childless woman.
The default view of some people is woman = baby machine.

At 43 I can look back and say that I've had the following comments:

(In my 20s whenever I said I didn't want children) variations of:
"Oh you just wait until the biological clock starts ticking."
"You'll change your mind when you meet the right man."
"Just wait till your friends start having babies, you'll get broody and want one."

In my early to mid 30s variations of:
"Don't leave it too long or you may have problems conceiving!"
"A career isn't everything you know, you'll regret it if you don't have children."

Now in my 40s, variations of:
"Do you have children? Oh...(pause)...couldn't you have any?"
"Don't you worry about dying alone/being alone when you're old?"
"Oh...well I suppose you get to enjoy other people's children and hand them back for the bad bits ha ha" (Nope, I'm not one of those who becomes 'aunty' to other people's kids)
"(puzzled look)...haven't you ever regretted it?"
"Well I suppose that, even now, you could always foster if you change your mind"
"I guess if you don't meet the right man....."


It's only when you are childfree that you become aware of how many people just assume you have kids and, when you say you don't, take on a sympathetic and concerned tone. Here's the odd thing though...it's always women who ask those questions and make those assumptions. It's never men.

heartbreak_star

The latest one me and my OH are getting is "Oh what a shame, you'd have such beautiful children! Are you SURE you don't want them...?" There's a backhanded compliment if I ever got one!

Yes, I'm sure. And yes, it is always women who say it, I agre with WW there!

HBS x

amus

I find it very strange that some people can differentiate between the need for abortion for medical reasons/rape and the need for abortion due to carelessness/failed contraception.

If people believe that a foetus is a life, even in the early stages of conception, how does one differentiate? After all if the foetus/embryo is the result of a rape it is still alive, it didnt ask to be conceived as a result of rape, so why should it 'be punished' by loosing its life? Why would this be considered OK.

If you hold a foetus in the same esteem as a living child then would that mean it is morally OK to kill a child (that has been born) if it was conceived through rape?

It is therefore my opinon that there is no middle ground in this area, you either feel that abortion is murder and is never acceptable, or you accept that what is aborted is a potential life in the same way as an egg or a sperm, and therefore is acceptable in all circumstance (obviously within legal limits).

euronorris

coolcait wrote: »

I have to disagree.

I think it's possible to recognise when something may be 'offensive' - even though you're not offended yourself.

May is the operative word. Unless another person explicitly tells us, then we can't be sure. And if they could tell us, then why couldn't they report it themselves?

And, whilst someone may be offended, it doesn't necessarily mean that they want it reported. People frequently post opinions that I find offensive, but I don't report it. Why would I? It's their opinion. Just because I don't like it, doesn't mean that they don't have a right to express it.

If, however, someone personally attacked me on a thread, called me names or whatever, then I might report it (more to stop the derailment of a thread than anything else). But I will do that. Me. No one else. I don't need anyone else to do it for me.

euronorris

amus wrote: »

I find it very strange that some people can differentiate between the need for abortion for medical reasons/rape and the need for abortion due to carelessness/failed contraception.

If people believe that a foetus is a life, even in the early stages of conception, how does one differentiate? After all if the foetus/embryo is the result of a rape it is still alive, it didnt ask to be conceived as a result of rape, so why should it 'be punished' by loosing its life? Why would this be considered OK.

If you hold a foetus in the same esteem as a living child then would that mean it is morally OK to kill a child (that has been born) if it was conceived through rape?

It is therefore my opinon that there is no middle ground in this area, you either feel that abortion is murder and is never acceptable, or you accept that what is aborted is a potential life in the same way as an egg or a sperm, and therefore is acceptable in all circumstance (obviously within legal limits).

That's a good point.

I have always differentiated, but only in my personal experience of what I would do (I by no means expect anyone else to follow what I do, and respect everyone else's individual choice on such a matter). So, if I found out I was pregnant today (for example) and OH left me, I'd most likely go ahead with the pregnancy as I know that with the support of friends and family, and a little time to adjust/set myself up in a new place etc, I'd be OK. Same applies if the pregnancy was as a result of a short lived fling/one night stand.

But if I was raped, and then found out I was pregnant as a result...well, honestly, truthfully, I just don't know if I could have that baby. I don't know how I would feel about it, and I also wonder how the eventual child would feel when they found out the truth about their conception. I just don't know if I would be able to cope. Anyone who has done so has my full admiration, as I just wouldn't have the strength for it. So for me, personally, I'd likely terminate any pregnancy resulting from rape.

I know that adoption is another route, but I think I'd even struggle to bring it to term in those circumstances. I don't think I would cope with it emotionally or mentally.