Best place to buy stove online

welda

Leif wrote: »

I am surprised that you lack a sense of humour.

Frankly I do not like the way you attack the trades on this forum.

Interesting character assination attemp. Leif, you are obviously not clued up on the law "The Protection of Badgers Act 1992", shame on you!!

Regarding "cabal" although I much prefer to use the word "clique" of installers/box sellers/hetas et-all. They were nothing more than bullies, or tried to be.

Re: CPR, he left because he could not deal with being challenged. For example, my current, and only stove I installed myself late 09, I was slated for doing so. My villager box was also slated for being the Lada of the box business, albeit a British made stove.

Then you have those who have the audasity to mention they purchased a Tiger stove, made in China, the then CPR took great pleasure ripping into the purchaser for buying Chinese.

But if you went over to another site where CPR is revered as a demi god, a member of the same site would post about purchasing same chinese box product. Poster would not get ripped as he would do to others in MSE site, dual standards come to mind!!

It is no secret CPR and I did not get on, I do, and still do have respect for the man as he goes about his blue chip box installation business, and that is what they are, metal, or cast boxes, it is not rocket science to install these boxes, but like all DIY, the DIYer should be a level above competant to install his/her box.

Which reminds me, I also received a pm from the man himself, I was accused of stalking him :rotfl:how childish is that!! He also said I probably owned an old car, the reasoning for this was because I owned a villager stove, so not capable own a decent motor (I own three) one is a MH.

I could go on, but suuffice said me thinks, apart from, no one run off the "clique" the "clique" could not handle being challenged, there was no room for debate, apart from "I install boxes for a living, so I know better". Yes of course installers are a wealth of information, some handle critisism better than CPR. But us member here on MSE can give GOOD MONEY SAVING information to new would be posters, why is this? We have no other agenda but to give out our words of wisdom for free!!

HETAS, I wont bother wasting my time with this cartel!

Have a good evening.............

Leif

welda wrote: »

Interesting character assination attemp. Leif, you are obviously not clued up on the law "The Protection of Badgers Act 1992", shame on you!!

Really? There was no character assassination attempt. In this thread Badger attacked a trade, questioning his integrity. Was that not character assassination? I would have been insulted if such remarks were directed at me. I think people here are able to read posts from many people and make up their own minds without having Badger act as a forum censor.

welda wrote: »

But us member here on MSE can give GOOD MONEY SAVING information to new would be posters, why is this? We have no other agenda but to give out our words of wisdom for free!!

HETAS, I wont bother wasting my time with this cartel!

Have a good evening.............

The fact that someone is not in the stove trade, or a related business, does not in itself make the advice good. And the fact that someone installs stoves does not automatically mean they are dishonest and their advice is worthless. Life is not so black and white as that. But if you discard any advice from installers on the grounds that they have 'an agenda' and accept any remarks from someone with experience of a couple of stoves, then you are living in a fools paradise. I prefer to hear both sets of viewpoints

One impression I had when reading through thread on this forum, and I read huge numbers of posts going back many years, is that some stove owners get uppity when an installer dismisses their stove as not good. They jump up and down and protest that it is good. Well, quite possibly. But it is also possible that quality control is poor, so some are bad, or that the installer is more experienced, and knows the shortcomings of cheap stoves, whereas the inexperienced stove owner simply thinks it is marvelous. I'd rather hear both sides of the story. If someone does sell stoves, and comments negatively on some brands, clearly they could have an agenda. Incidentally some of the comments from crphillips included statements that stoves are a bit of a trend at the moment, that they are in general not financially worthwhile, and that really most people buy them for the ambiance i.e. a nice warm fire. That does not sound much like an agenda to me. Maybe it does to you.

I would rather there was more information about how to install a stove oneself and get it certified, and this forum is an ideal vehicle for that. I have been surprised at how much DIY is easy. Yesterday I fitted some skirting board around a hearth. Easy peasy. But I digress.

If Badger thinks stove installers have 'an agenda' then perhaps he should contact the moderators and see about having them banned.

I have had huge amounts of advice from trades while decorating my house. And I have read a lot of useful information on these forums from kitchen designers and installers. Do forum members attack them for having 'an agenda'? They don't, and like me they probably retain an open mind, but benefit from some of the wisdom.

Regarding Hetas, I do not know much about them, but I can believe it is a self serving organisation. But I doubt the installers on this forum were responsible for the creation of Hetas, and the regs. As someone recently said on this forum, we do need some forum of regulation, but perhaps Hetas is not, err, optimal. In the same vein, we need some regulation of electrics, but Part P does not stop bodgers creating unsafe electrics. It does mean that honest and capable DIY enthusiast has to pay outrageous amounts of money to Part P certified electricians. But I do not give electricians a kicking just because I think Part P is seriously flawed.

A._Badger

God, you do go on, Leif. I'd determined just to ignore your rambling, verbose and illogical rants until you decided to pick it up again.

So let's just get one thing straight. I have no vested interest in puffing products and services to boost my profits. I just speak from the experience of having bought several stoves for several homes.

That certainly gives me an advantage over a stove retailer who has never sold a particular brand of stoves and simply dislikes it because he can't make enough money selling it, because he doesn't like the people who made it, fell out with the rep - or whatever other arcane reasons can make retailers take a dislike to certain brands.

It is also precisely the sort of end-user input you were asking for on another thread on this forum - which would be rank hypocrisy on your part were it not so funny.

As I've said before, MSE exists, we are told, for end-users to recount their experiences. That's precisely what I have done. If you don't like it, I suggest you just continue swallowing hook line and sinker whatever someone calling himself a retailer or installer tells you, while I and other commenters here continue to use the forums for the purpose for which they were designed - offering the consumer's experience as a counterweight to commercial interests.

Leif

A._Badger wrote: »

God, you do go on, Leif. I'd determined just to ignore your rambling, verbose and illogical rants until you decided to pick it up again.

Given that someone directed their comments at me, isn't it reasonable for me to reply? Or does the self appointed forum censor disagree?

A._Badger wrote: »

So let's just get one thing straight. I have no vested interest in puffing products and services to boost my profits. I just speak from the experience of having bought several stoves for several homes.

That certainly gives me an advantage over a stove retailer who has never sold a particular brand of stoves and simply dislikes it because he can't make enough money selling it, because he doesn't like the people who made it, fell out with the rep - or whatever other arcane reasons can make retailers take a dislike to certain brands.

It is also precisely the sort of end-user input you were asking for on another thread on this forum - which would be rank hypocrisy on your part were it not so funny.

As I've said before, MSE exists, we are told, for end-users to recount their experiences. That's precisely what I have done. If you don't like it, I suggest you just continue swallowing hook line and sinker whatever someone calling himself a retailer or installer tells you, while I and other commenters here continue to use the forums for the purpose for which they were designed - offering the consumer's experience as a counterweight to commercial interests.

:rotfl:

Have a nice day.

welda

Leif,

Your missing the point while you go about badger bashing. As I mentioned in my first post, we had this stove snobbery in here. I'm very much a hands on guy myself, yet not deemed fit to do my own install, even though demi-god CRP plied his trade in aircraft industry, obviously could not handle this industry and got out, so I fail to see how he is fit to install boxes and I am not, apart from me not having a certified HETAS certificate.

There were lots of scenarios of first time posters with a low budget asking for box recommendations. Various (non trade) posters would chip in with advice, including myself. To be then shot down for advising on a box that was too cheap.

MSE is a MS site, not a showroom foraging ground for those in the trade looking to skim from posters, if A. Badger is guilty of trade bashing, then I am too!!

Have a good evening.

Leif

welda wrote: »

Leif,

Your missing the point while you go about badger bashing. As I mentioned in my first post, we had this stove snobbery in here. I'm very much a hands on guy myself, yet not deemed fit to do my own install, even though demi-god CRP plied his trade in aircraft industry, obviously could not handle this industry and got out, so I fail to see how he is fit to install boxes and I am not, apart from me not having a certified HETAS certificate.

There were lots of scenarios of first time posters with a low budget asking for box recommendations. Various (non trade) posters would chip in with advice, including myself. To be then shot down for advising on a box that was too cheap.

MSE is a MS site, not a showroom foraging ground for those in the trade looking to skim from posters, if A. Badger is guilty of trade bashing, then I am too!!

Have a good evening.

After reading back many years of threads I didn't get the impression installers were pushing products, or unfairly bashing, just giving advice based on experience. I did not get the impression the forum was being used as a showroom. In fact I found the information useful and informative. It is clear though that some people did not like the views expressed by installers, and could not cope with an installer dismissing, or disparaging a stove they owned, or contradicting their views. Rather than accept that they were honestly held views, one or two people dismissed them on the grounds of corruption (as that was the allegation) i.e. self interest.

I cannot recall an installer saying you cannot install a stove yourself. They have pointed out that you need to have it certified. And if you don't then you risk voiding your house insurance, and making it hard to sell your house. These are real risks, not extracts from sales brochures. I would ask for a price reduction were I to make an offer on a house and find the stove did not have a certificate.

welda

Leif wrote: »

After reading back many years of threads I didn't get the impression installers were pushing products, or unfairly bashing, just giving advice based on experience. I did not get the impression the forum was being used as a showroom. In fact I found the information useful and informative. It is clear though that some people did not like the views expressed by installers, and could not cope with an installer dismissing, or disparaging a stove they owned, or contradicting their views. Rather than accept that they were honestly held views, one or two people dismissed them on the grounds of corruption (as that was the allegation) i.e. self interest.

I cannot recall an installer saying you cannot install a stove yourself. They have pointed out that you need to have it certified. And if you don't then you risk voiding your house insurance, and making it hard to sell your house. These are real risks, not extracts from sales brochures. I would ask for a price reduction were I to make an offer on a house and find the stove did not have a certificate.

Hi, what you see and read is down to your own interpretation.

I would give my own personal experience of my purchase and, how my product performed for me. Whether or not a pro came along and ripped my box to bits re; performance, quality, yes I would challenge this, based purely on how my purchase performed, as for quality, I did a lot of research prior to my purchase of a MF Villager Duo, certainly not a lot of money compared to other marques, but performs really well for a 5kw box.

Quality: I know for a fact RR welding gear used for welding, in fact a great deal of investment was spent on equipment and welding procedures, ISO 9001 accreditation, but to the god like installers, my research was worthless, they knew better!

So, I would argue my case when a newbie would post asking for advise, especially a newbie on a budget.

As for lining a chimney, I had to line mine as it was breached, if not breached, I may well have gone down the road not to line, but with hindsite, I can see the wisdom of lining and, I have said the same here on MSE.

I'm in Scotland, HETAS is not big, if they do exist here? I did not have my install signed off by building control, if, and when I do sell my house, if a buyer is not satisfied with lack of paperwork, I'll swap real box for an electric one. As for BC officer, do they do a HETAS install course, probably not?

I pay enough via council tax to keep these job worths in work, with the nature of my work, I am more likely to undertand the workings of hot work than they can even imagine!

One other point, how many BC officers will get up on a stack, drop down a video camera to check integrity of a chimney, I would say none!

Yet despite route I went down prior to install, I know nothing, I'm a welder, not a box installer with a cert that says HETAS.

I've worked with certificated welders that could not lace my boots, tis only a bit of paper afterall!!

Regards..............

A._Badger

welda wrote: »

Hi, what you see and read is down to your own interpretation.

I would give my own personal experience of my purchase and, how my product performed for me. Whether or not a pro came along and ripped my box to bits re; performance, quality, yes I would challenge this, based purely on how my purchase performed, as for quality, I did a lot of research prior to my purchase of a MF Villager Duo, certainly not a lot of money compared to other marques, but performs really well for a 5kw box. .

It's much like asking what car to buy on a car forum then being surprised when the BMW dealers tell you anything cheaper than a BMW is rubbish. And, of course, it should only be serviced by a BMW dealer!

Poor old Ford customers, eh?

I did the same as Welda - asked around. My sweep (sorry - our new forum nanny dislikes sweeps, but there you go) told me he sweeps quite a few Hunter fed chimneys and his opinion was that they they seemed decent value for money to him and that his customers seemed happy with theirs..

I wonder how many customers he has? Hundreds? Thousands? All I know is that he can take six weeks to book, so it's a fair few. I'd call that valuable experience. Particularly compared to the opinions of someone who who has neither owned, nor even sold one.

The difference, of course, is that the sweep doesn't sell stoves, so had no axe to grind. Curiously, he speaks well of Villagers, too.

He is though, HETAS registered, so fitted mine for me.

Funny old world...

Leif

welda wrote: »

Hi, what you see and read is down to your own interpretation.

...

Welda, whilst most of your post is quite reasonable, your one sample tells you nothing about quality control. I once did a survey of a specific Chinese torch. It got rave reviews from many people, as it cost about £8 including shipping, compared to about £50 for branded items bought in the UK (still Chinese, incidentally). I bought one. It did not work properly. According to the survey, of many tens of users, about 1 in 4 were in some way faulty, and perhaps half of those were unusable. It was the quality control that added to the price, along with UK dealer support of course. Also if you have limited experience of stoves, you might not recognise failings in cheaper units.

I can recall posts by some installers saying they had more trouble with certain brands than others. More than a few people said nonsense, their stove was great. Feedback from installers is IMO informative.

I don't doubt you installed a stove properly. Some friends did the same. I trust them. Not all people can do that. I am scared of heights, and the price I paid for installation was not unreasonable. Yes there will be rogues and incompetents in the installation business. The building trade is full of them. There are good ones too. In my view you should never ever hire a trade without a personal recommendation or a recommendation from an organisation you trust e.g. a contractor used by the National Trust. I suspect that is also true of installers. That is why I went with a high street shop, as that gives some confidence that they are not fly by night, and I spoke with the staff many times and they came across as knowledgeable.

I do know about rogues. I am down £3000 thanks to some bathroom bodgers that I am pursuing in the courts. They have lied throughout, including giving misinformation to steer my decisions down their preferred route. I am starting to think I can spot a rogue by their behaviour. I've dealt with a few over the past year.

Leif

A._Badger wrote: »

It's much like asking what car to buy on a car forum then being surprised when the BMW dealers tell you anything cheaper than a BMW is rubbish. And, of course, it should only be serviced by a BMW dealer!

Poor old Ford customers, eh?

I did the same as Welda - asked around. My sweep (sorry - our new forum nanny dislikes sweeps, but there you go) told me he sweeps quite a few Hunter fed chimneys and his opinion was that they they seemed decent value for money to him and that his customers seemed happy with theirs..

I wonder how many customers he has? Hundreds? Thousands? All I know is that he can take six weeks to book, so it's a fair few. I'd call that valuable experience. Particularly compared to the opinions of someone who who has neither owned, nor even sold one.

The difference, of course, is that the sweep doesn't sell stoves, so had no axe to grind. Curiously, he speaks well of Villagers, too.

He is though, HETAS registered, so fitted mine for me.

Funny old world...

I always thought this was an open forum. You dismiss the views of people who install stoves, and others 'in the business', who do not sell them. You didn't even try to find out what the earlier poster in this thread did, such is your cynical contempt for the 'business', except for sweeps who you seem to adore going by comments here and elsewhere. These are people with considerable experience. But you are not shy to advise people as to which stove to buy despite your not exactly great experience. No doubt if someone does sell stoves, then their advice is to be taken with a pinch of salt, and moderators might take an interest. But, the In My Home forum has lots of kitchen installers and designers (one works for Magnet) who offer advice. There is no forum censor to shoo them away, or question their integrity. Everyone knows who they are, and forum members are intelligent enough to be able to read their views, and judge for themselves. Yes they will have bias, but for example I asked them why they thought no mainstream UK kitchen matched good German ones, and they explained. No doubt you and Welda would consider me and other forum members to be sitting at their feet with a look of blind admiration on our faces. Hohum.

I know first hand that the cheaper 'bargain' Chinese products are often crap. Benro tripods are copies of Gitzo and the quality is not good. There are many Chinese copies of American Surefire torches. Again the quality is poor, and Catchfire would be a good brand name for them. Many owners of these products love them, and that is because they have never used quality ones. To point out failings of cheaper products is not snobbery. I am sure many people would be interested to know the differences. You need to realise that people are intelligent enough not to take such information at face value, just as I do not take your claims of impartiality and superior opinions at face value. You may be 'impartial' in the sense of disinterested, but you are also rather uninformed.

If you have a problem with people in the business posting here, why not complain to the moderators and let them decide.