ESA50 form

melbury

But surely Incapacity Benefit must have been far easier, otherwise why bother to change it over to ESA, which is extremely difficult to get and you are constantly being monitored whatever your condition.

When did ATOS first appear on the scene then? If it was ages ago, why weren't they calling people in every few months like they do now?

rotoguys

cit_k wrote: »

But thats only because you are a lying troll.

Incapacity benefit was not even introduced till april 1995.

What have I lied about/ Please tell me. I should know when I was claiming benefits for sickness. The claim started in December 1994.

And what is this troll thing about?

I can't remember if it was called that then or not. I do seem to remember that I also claimed Invalidity Benefit/Sickness Benefit/Income Support/Supplementary Benefit.

I still have the counterfoil post office books that I got my money with.

Besides which, why are you so picky, does everybody have to make sure that they get every little fact right when posting on here?

If you want to be picky - have a look at your own post - the english grammar used is awful! More befitting a second rate junior school!

rotoguys

melbury wrote: »

But surely Incapacity Benefit must have been far easier, otherwise why bother to change it over to ESA, which is extremely difficult to get and you are constantly being monitored whatever your condition.

When did ATOS first appear on the scene then? If it was ages ago, why weren't they calling people in every few months like they do now?

Exactly, IB, was far far easier to get and far easier to stay on than ESA is.

You are right, ESA was brought out quite rightly to rid the country of the so called 'sick brigade' that may have passed an assessment of sorts years earlier, and had been left to rot there - total uncared for. I would hate to have been in that position, with the only thing to look forward to year after year was the regular post office giro.

At least with ESA and the regular assessments, you are not just left year after year with no hope of getting anywhere.
Like many in this country we have become lazy and rely too much on state hand outs. That is not good for the country nor is it good for the person concerned.

cit_k

melbury wrote: »

But surely Incapacity Benefit must have been far easier, otherwise why bother to change it over to ESA, which is extremely difficult to get and you are constantly being monitored whatever your condition.

When did ATOS first appear on the scene then? If it was ages ago, why weren't they calling people in every few months like they do now?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The computer says no: electronic incapacity reports Background

In 2002, SchlumbergerSema, the company contracted to provide the DWP’s Medical Service (MS), began trials of a new computer system called Lima (Logic Integrated Medical Assessment), designed to facilitate the provision of medical examinations and reports for the purposes of the personal capability assessment (PCA).

Lima was rolled out on a national basis during 2003 and 2004. In 2004, SchlumbergerSema was taken over by Atos Origin, an international IT company which was recently awarded a new seven-year contract to continue to provide the MS. The contract includes a commitment to reduce the PCA processing times and improve the capabilities of Lima[/FONT]

So since 2002 in trial areas, 2003/4 for the rest of the country, albeit under their old name.

I was regularily called in after a few months (often 3) for another assessment, then it was wait for tribunal, prove it wrong, wait a short while then repeat..

Not much difference screw up wise between ESA and IB, or difficulty wise (apart from descriptors) if you look purely at trying to get a fair assessment or decision, or the frequency of assessments etc.

The only difference is, IB had some exemptions (such as for people in a permanent vegatative state for example) that ESA no longer has, but apart from the small list of exemptions, everyone was assessed on a regular basis, depening on the severity of the problem.

The reason they moved to ESA, is because they have a target of failing 1 milllion IB claimaints - to do this, they have to ignore the actual problems they face.

They do this by altering the descriptors.

However, that does not mean IB was easy to get, appeals were a problem with IB too, every single assessment I had led to an appeal, every one I won...

Fictional medical reports, lies, bad decisions, etc have existed for many years, under IB.

cit_k

rotoguys wrote: »

Exactly, IB, was far far easier to get and far easier to stay on than ESA is.

You are right, ESA was brought out quite rightly to rid the country of the so called 'sick brigade' that may have passed an assessment of sorts years earlier, and had been left to rot there - total uncared for. I would hate to have been in that position, with the only thing to look forward to year after year was the regular post office giro.

At least with ESA and the regular assessments, you are not just left year after year with no hope of getting anywhere.
Like many in this country we have become lazy and rely too much on state hand outs. That is not good for the country nor is it good for the person concerned.

Thats another part of the reason why I think you are trolling.

Re-assessments were a legal requirement, legislated into the system.

Even for people under exemptions, they would be assessed behind the scenes, with medical evidence being requested.

People were not just given it and forgotten about.

Besides, not long ago, you said you were on IB, this post your saying you would have hated to be in that position, you cannot even keep consistancy in your posts....

rotoguys

cit_k wrote: »

So since 2002 in trial areas, 2003/4 for the rest of the country, albeit under their old name.

I was regularily called in after a few months (often 3) for another assessment, then it was wait for tribunal, prove it wrong, wait a short while then repeat..

Not much difference screw up wise between ESA and IB, or difficulty wise (apart from descriptors) if you look purely at trying to get a fair assessment or decision, or the frequency of assessments etc.

The only difference is, IB had some exemptions (such as for people in a permanent vegatative state for example) that ESA no longer has, but apart from the small list of exemptions, everyone was assessed on a regular basis, depening on the severity of the problem.

The reason they moved to ESA, is because they have a target of failing 1 milllion IB claimaints - to do this, they have to ignore the actual problems they face.

They do this by altering the descriptors.

However, that does not mean IB was easy to get, appeals were a problem with IB too, every single assessment I had led to an appeal, every one I won...

Fictional medical reports, lies, bad decisions, etc have existed for many years, under IB.

These are the old IB descriptors from 2003/04

Descriptors and scores for each activity
Sitting in an upright chair with a back but no arms

Rising from sitting from an upright chair with a
back but no arms

Bending and kneeling

Standing without the support of another person;
may use a walking stick

Walking on level ground with a walking stick or
other aid if normally used

Walking up and down stairs

Reaching

Lifting and carrying by use of upper body and arms

Vision in normal daylight with glasses

Speech

Hearing with a hearing aid if used

Remaining conscious without having epileptic or
similar seizures during waking moments

Continence (other than enuresis – bed wetting)

Mental health descriptors
Completion of tasks
Daily living
Coping with pressure

Interaction with other people

There seems to be little difference between the above and the ones on the ESA50. Why then are you saying that ESA is more difficult to get than IB? You say the descriptors have changed and that it is causing the problems - where? I can't see a material change?

Cpt.Scarlet

rotoguys wrote: »

These are the old IB descriptors from 2003/04



There seems to be little difference between the above and the ones on the ESA50. Why then are you saying that ESA is more difficult to get than IB? You say the descriptors have changed and that it is causing the problems - where? I can't see a material change?

Try reading the ESA descriptors.

rotoguys

cit_k wrote: »

Thats another part of the reason why I think you are trolling.

Re-assessments were a legal requirement, legislated into the system.

Even for people under exemptions, they would be assessed behind the scenes, with medical evidence being requested.

People were not just given it and forgotten about.

Besides, not long ago, you said you were on IB, this post your saying you would have hated to be in that position, you cannot even keep consistancy in your posts....

I'll deal with your points one by one.

I can categorically state that I am not 'trolling'.

I left IB or whatever it was called, in 2002, which may be the reason why I was never assessed as the 'new' sytem didn't come into play until 2003/04. I was in receipt of DLA at the higher rates.

I knew and had medical evidence to support that opinion and belief that I was entitled to IB as I was also in receipt of DLA at the higher rates and IIDB at 80%.

After those 8 years on benefits, I couldn't wait to get off them asap. I closed the IB, DLA and IIDB claims down during the year 2002/3. I then took up work in a supermarket. I stopped all of my medication and refused to attend any more medical appointments.

Those 8 years were a nightmare. Half the time I had no idea what time of day it was or which day of the week.

Whether it was right to carry out those actions is another matter.

Thinking back now; I have no idea how people could cope with being on benefits like those, especially IB with no one checking to see if you were OK or not. The thought that people did and still do that for years and years is not something that I could have coped with. 8 years was bad enough. I hated every minute, and would have hated it even more if that was all I had to look forward to - my weekly post office giro. It is beyond my comprehension that people actually choose to do that.

Does that make it any clearer for you?

rotoguys

Cpt.Scarlet wrote: »

Try reading the ESA descriptors.

I have, and I can see very little difference. What differences that I can see are not really material - merely an expansion on those of 2003/04. Unless you can point them out to me.
1. Mobilising unaided by another person with or without a walking stick, manual wheelchair or other aid if such aid can reasonable be used.


a)Cannot either

1. mobilise more than 50 meters on level ground without stopping in order to avoid significant discomfort or exhaustion; or
2. repeatedly mobilise 50 meters within a reasonable timescale because of significant discomfort or exhaustion.

15b)Cannot mount or descend two steps unaided by another person even with the support of a handrail.9c)
Cannot either

1. mobilise more than 100 meters on level ground without stopping in order to avoid significant discomfort or exhaustion; or
2. repeatedly mobilise 100 meters within a reasonable timescale because of significant discomfort or exhaustion.

9d)Cannot either

1. Mobilise more than 200 meters on level ground without stopping in order to avoid significant discomfort or exhaustion; or
2. repeatedly mobilise 200 meters within a reasonable timescale because of significant discomfort or exhaustion.

6 e)None of the above0

2. Standing and sitting


a)Cannot move between one seated position and another seated position located next to one another without receiving physical assistance from another person15b)Cannot, for the majority of the time, remain at a work station, either:

1. standing unassisted by another person (even if free to move around); or
2. sitting (even in an adjustable chair)

for more than 30 minutes, before needing to move away in order to avoid significant discomfort or exhaustion.
9c)Cannot, for the majority of the time, remain at a work station, either:

1. standing unassisted by another person (even if free to move around); or
2. sitting (even in an adjustable chair)

for more than an hour before needing to move away in order to avoid significant discomfort or exhaustion.
6d)None of the above apply0

3. Reaching


a)Cannot raise either arm as if to put something in the top pocket of a coat or jacket.15b)Cannot raise either arm to top of head as if to put on a hat.9c)Cannot raise either arm above head height as if to reach for something.6d)None of the above apply0

4. Picking up and moving or transferring by the use of upper body and arms


a)Cannot pick up and move a 0.5 litre carton full of liquid.15b)Cannot pick up and move a one litre carton full of liquid.9c)Cannot transfer a light but bulky object such as an empty cardboard box.6d)None of the above apply0

5. Manual dexterity


a)Cannot either:

1. press a button, such as a telephone keypad; or
2. turn the pages of a book with either hand

15b)Cannot pick up a £1 coin or equivalent with either hand.15c)Cannot use a pen or pencil to make a meaningful mark.9d)Cannot use a suitable keyboard or mouse.9e)None of the above apply0

6. Making self understood through speaking, writing, typing or other means normally used; unaided by another person


a)Cannot convey a simple message, such as the presence of a hazard.15b)Has significant difficulty conveying a simple message to strangers.15c)Has some difficulty conveying a simple message to strangers.6d)None of the above apply.0

7. Understanding communication by both verbal means (such as hearing or lip reading) and non-verbal means (such as reading 16 point print) using any aid if reasonably used; unaided by another person


a)Cannot understand a simple message due to sensory impairment, such as the location of a fire escape.15b)Has significant difficulty understanding a simple message from a stranger due to sensory impairment.15c)Has some difficulty understanding a simple message from a stranger due to sensory impairment.6d)None of the above apply0

8. Navigation and maintaining safety, using a guide dog or other aid if normally used.


a)Unable to navigate around familiar surroundings, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment.15b)Cannot safely complete a potentially hazardous task such as crossing the road, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment.15c)Unable to navigate around unfamiliar surroundings, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment.9d)None of the above apply0

9. Absence or loss of control leading to extensive evacuation of the bowel and/ or bladder, despite the presence of any aids or adaptations normally used.


a)At least once a month experiences

1. loss of control leading to extensive evacuation of the bowel and/or voiding of the bladder; or
2. substantial leakage of the contents of a collecting device sufficient to require the individual to clean themselves and change clothing

15b)At risk of loss of control leading to extensive evacuation of the bowel and/or voiding of the bladder, sufficient to require cleaning and a change in clothing, if not able to reach a toilet quickly.6c)None of the above apply0

10. Consciousness during waking moments


a)At least once a week, has an involuntary episode of lost or altered consciousness resulting in significantly disrupted awareness or concentration.15b)At least once a month, has an involuntary episode of lost or altered consciousness resulting in significantly disrupted awareness or concentration.6c)None of the above apply0

11. Learning tasks


a)Cannot learn how to complete a simple task, such as setting an alarm clock.15b)Cannot learn anything beyond a simple task, such as setting an alarm clock.9c)Cannot learn anything beyond a moderately complex task, such as the steps involved in operating a washing machine to clean clothes.6d)None of the above apply0

12. Awareness of everyday hazards (such as boiling water or sharp objects)


a)Reduced awareness of everyday hazards leads to a significant risk of:

1. injury to self or others; or
2. damage to property or possessions,

such that they require supervision for the majority of the time to maintain safety.
15b)Reduced awareness of everyday hazards leads to a significant risk of:

1. injury to self or others; or
2. damage to property or possessions,

Such that they frequently require supervision to maintain safety.
9c)Reduced awareness of everyday hazards leads to a significant risk of:

1. injury to self or others; or
2. damage to property or possessions,

such that they occasionally require supervision to maintain safety.
6d)None of the above apply0

13. Initiating and completing personal action (which means planning, organisation, problem solving, prioritising or switching tasks)


a)Cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 sequential personal actions.15b)Cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 personal actions for the majority of the time.9c)Frequently cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 personal actions.6d)None of the above apply0

14. Coping with change


a)Cannot cope with any change to the extent that day to day life cannot be managed.15b)Cannot cope with minor planned change (such as pre-arranged change to the routine time scheduled for a lunch break), to the extent that overall, day to day life is made significantly more difficult.9c)Cannot cope with minor unplanned change (such as the timing of an appointment on the day it is due to occur), to the extent that overall, day to day life is made significantly more difficult.6d)None of the above apply0

15. Getting about


a)Cannot get to any specified place with which the claimant is familiar.15b)Is unable to get to a specified place with which the claimant is familiar, without being accompanied by another person.9c)Is unable to get to a specified place with which the claimant is unfamiliar without being accompanied by another person.6d)None of the above apply0

16. Coping with social engagement due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder


a)Engagement in social contact is always precluded due to difficulty relating to others or significant distress experienced by the individual.15b)Engagement in social contact with someone unfamiliar to the claimant is always precluded due to difficulty relating to others or significant distress experienced by the individual.9c)Engagement in social contact with someone unfamiliar to the claimant is precluded for the majority of the time due to difficulty relating to others or significant distress experienced by the individual.6d)None of the above apply0

17. Appropriateness of behaviour with other people, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder


a)Has, on a daily basis, uncontrollable episodes of aggressive or disinhibited behaviour that would be unreasonable in any workplace.15b)Frequently has uncontrollable episodes of aggressive or disinhibited behaviour that would be unreasonable in any workplace.15c)Occasionally has uncontrollable episodes of aggressive or disinhibited behaviour that would be unreasonable in any workplace.9d)None of the above apply

Cpt.Scarlet

Sitting in an upright chair with a back but no arms
You can't score points for sitting as the test is Sitting AND Standing

Rising from sitting from an upright chair with a
back but no arms
Not tested anymore

Bending and kneeling

Not test anymore

Standing without the support of another person;
may use a walking stick

You can't score points for standing only as the test is Standing AND sitting

Walking on level ground with a walking stick or
other aid if normally used

It's now mobiliing which includes the use of wheelchair even if not owned or used.

Walking up and down stairs

You only score points for two steps not 1 or 2 as in IB

Reaching

Harder to score points as it is now either arm not both

Lifting and carrying by use of upper body and arms

All but 1 of the IB descriptors removed

Vision in normal daylight with glasses

Test is no longer just for vision so much more difficult to score points

Speech

No longer just speech includes writing

Hearing with a hearing aid if used

No longer just hearing includes reading

Remaining conscious without having epileptic or
similar seizures during waking moments

Harder to score points for and points reduced.

Continence (other than enuresis – bed wetting)

Only descriptor where WCA is probably eaiser

Mental health descriptors
Completion of tasks
No WCA equivalent

Daily living

No WCA equivalent


Coping with pressure
No WCA equivalent

Interaction with other people

No WCA equivalent

So just one descriptor where it easier to score points