MSE News: Applications for 2012 uni starters falls, as tuition fees set to rise

2sides2everystory

melancholly wrote: »

i hate the new student finance system - i have never tried to hide that. but what's the realistic alternative?!

Easy. Continue down the current route and take back the ill gotten gains from those in financial services who thought they were players.

... throw a tantrum about it and disagree with everyone about everything because it somehow makes you feel better?! hardly the grown up approach.

I agree, so consider butting out until you have matured to the point that you cease to keep quoting that stupid fatalistic mantra 'we have to deal with what is on the table.'. Even the bloody SLC hasn't got it's finger out dealing with it yet.

... trying to scare potential students off university with complete misrepresentations of the facts is, quite honestly, pathetic!

Show me what I have misrepresented.

... it's getting boring!

... to you.

... it's getting through!

... when 2sides blunders into threads all over the shop ...

Oh please ... anyone would think it was your shop yet none of you who are here posting 'we have to deal with what is on the table' ad nauseam (there - I have highlighted it for you) has a child who is affected by the scheme. Is that correct? Any many of you have careers in higher education or did have? Correct ?

Derivative

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Any many of you have careers in higher education or did have? Correct ?

I don't have a career in higher education. I'm on the complete opposite side of the fence as a student - I really don't see an extra £5500pa in tuition fees as a deal breaker.

The problem is not the £9000 tuition fee, as you have said, it's the interest rate increase. Which really does need to be focused on more.

They really are scary. RPI+3% while studying? Even on my 'smaller' loans, 8% would be >£2000 per year.

2sides2everystory

Yes Derivative, I didn't mean you of course. We don't agree on very much but I appreciate you have contributed some interesting thoughts as a current undergraduate under the earlier scheme.

The interest rate is fascinating - why is it there? The government bleats on about how it can raise medium term money at less than 2% so why is it selling it to minors at RPI + 3% ???

With your username expertise, perhaps you could show the usual crew how they might post under one group username so no-one is confused by the way they constantly pile in and thank each other - may I suggest WWO_TD_WWO_TT ('we wish only to deal with what's on the table')

Derivative

2sides2everystory wrote: »

The interest rate is fascinating - why is it there? The government bleats on about how it can raise medium term money at less than 2% so why is it selling it to minors at RPI + 3% ???

I would suggest not calling students 'minors', it's growing tiring now. Minors are legally defined as under age 18.

I suppose you can make the argument that students apply while aged 17, but A-level results and final acceptance are roughly two weeks before 18th birthday for the youngest of English students (disregarding those that skip years) - so the average is just under 18.5.

With regards to the interest rates - they're basically treating it as a commercial endeavour now. I think that suggesting loans may be privatised is a stretch, but it does make it at least feasible.

The default rates on student loans are huge due to them being written off in large numbers when people don't earn enough to repay them fully.

Which does logically raise the question of whether or not it's worth going for the average student, given that the average student doesn't seem to pay back their loans (not done the maths on this - I would suspect it true though).

My opinion is that it comes down to this - if you're studying a quantitative degree at a well respected University, you are probably justified in taking out the loan. Average graduate salaries are higher for STEM subjects, for example.

If you're not, you may have to reconsider, given the commercial interest rates being charged.

So I suppose this is where my conflict of interest does kick in - it's better for me personally if less people have honours degrees, and if those that do went to generally respected institutions. Less competition and greater respect.

A difficult one. I've always held the viewpoint that elitism is a good thing so long as meritocracy exists. Does this stem from the fact I'm 'alright Jack' as you've said before? I suspect that it must be at least in part.

Oldernotwiser

Derivative wrote: »

I don't have a career in higher education.

Neither did I - unfortunately.:(

Taiko

Someone really needs to take a stinger device to the blunderbus that is 2sides before it's too late...

melancholly

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Ymay I suggest WWO_TD_WWO_TT ('we wish only to deal with what's on the table')

how about adding _BIWHCSTDAE ('because it won't help current students to do anything else').

there's a time and a place for campaining for change, but it isn't here and it isn't now. with your take on things, students should put all life plans on hold for the next five years (or longer) in the hope that student finance will change. no-one thinks there's any hope of going back to free HE right now or in the forseeable future (except maybe you?), because that's not what the major parties want plus we're in a recession. they will tinker with the system, no doubt, but unless you want students to avoid university until the glorious revolution makes it all free, you are flogging a dead horse.

melancholly

2sides2everystory wrote: »

We are at a time when things can and do change fast, don't you think?

no, not with this. there is no political will and the lack of interest from the general public to join in the student protests in 2010 indicates that this isn't that important for many people..... much as i think it should be, this isn't going to happen. both the tories and labour believe in increasing fees. labour may say they would limit it £6K, but that hardly changes anything as for most people, they still won't pay off the total debt so it's all much of a muchness. we're also too far down the road for any potential changes to impact on the 2012 and probably 2013/2014 cohorts entering uni even if there was a u-turn. for their sake, we need to deal with reality rather than any ideal situation.

things can and will change - but that depends on widespead political and/or public will. that simply isn't there for this issue. ranting and insulting and trying to brow beat others into your opinions is unlikely to be a successful way to effect widespread change.

Oldernotwiser

2sides2everystory wrote: »

I don't see why not?Putting aside the hope for a moment, is it an option open to them? I don't mean life on hold necessarily, but is a 5 year deferment possible?

Students can and do go to university at any age, although very few of them are likely to be able to save over £40,000 in 5 years!


We are at a time when things can and do change fast, don't you think?

The only way that free HE would be reintroduced would be for student numbers to be reduced to the level of previous eras and, much as I would like to see that, it ain't going to happen! (Or at least not in our lifetimes.)

The_One_Who

2sides2everystory wrote: »

With your username expertise, perhaps you could show the usual crew how they might post under one group username so no-one is confused by the way they constantly pile in and thank each other - may I suggest WWO_TD_WWO_TT ('we wish only to deal with what's on the table')

We all actually have very different opinions on how to finance higher education, and all come from different sides of it. We just manage to put it across in a coherent and concise manner.

As for the 'we only want to deal with what's on the table', well, what else is there? Arguing about future student finance will not help students who are going through the process now. That is what is being discussed right now, and adding more and more on top will only confuse the issue.

2sides2everystory wrote: »

I don't see why not?Putting aside the hope for a moment, is it an option open to them? I don't mean life on hold necessarily, but is a 5 year deferment possible?

A deferral is not possible, you can only officially defer for one year. However, there is nothing stopping someone choosing not to enter university straight after school and coming back to it, or doing part-time or distance learning, at a later date. That is up to them to weight their own options for their own circumstances though.