MSE News: Applications for 2012 uni starters falls, as tuition fees set to rise

The_One_Who

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Yes of course, especially in the UK. A rather large proportion of their parents are reliant on the chilled and frozen food sections at the supermarket. Had you not noticed? I agree that as a nation it is not reasonable that we tolerate and fall victim to a food industry that entices us to be lazy about cooking but we are that nation so don't blame the children.

So who is to blame for the complete lack of foresight on the part of the student? If they think they are going to living away from home for university/job/gap year/anything else then at what point do you think they should perhaps be thinking of learning how to look after themselves? At eighteen why are they still so utterly reliant on their parents to cook dinner for them, surely they could make something (even if it's just putting something in the oven!) once a week? They are eighteen, not eight.

I spent the summer abroad, I didn't wait until I was in the airport to buy my currency and a phrase book. I didn't wait until I was in town to book accommodation for the evening. I had the foresight to do these things prior to my arrival.

You are surely not suggesting that material hatched by Willetts et al, and all those who have politicked it to this point is equivalent to the substance of that which deserves study at a university? A case study for some future PPE course perhaps.

No. I'm saying that there is a wealth of information out there from a variety of different sources to help them in their decisions of whether university is for them and about the loans themselves. Reading this information should help them understand what they are signing up for. This board has seen students completely unaware of the terms of the loans, they seem shocked that interest is charged from the moment they receive it for example.

The_One_Who

Derivative wrote: »

This is something I can agree with 2sides on, actually. I'm not that good in the kitchen. But then again, that's mainly because I don't deem it as something that's terribly important for me to know right now.

By contrast, not being able to cook up complex meals doesn't really affect me that much. I wouldn't be able to put on much of a dinner party, but if I want a healthy meal, I cook a bit of pasta, boil two veg, and stick a chicken in the oven. No recipe required other than knowing chicken probably shouldn't be pink when you eat it.

I'm not saying they should be able to cook up something that would make those on Masterchef jealous, just be able to cook up something basic. I don't think it is reasonable that people arrive at university not knowing how to boil an egg or how to brown mince. And I don't think that that is entirely the fault of the parents, where is the student's responsibility in this?

Derivative

The_One_Who wrote: »

I'm not saying they should be able to cook up something that would make those on Masterchef jealous, just be able to cook up something basic. I don't think it is reasonable that people arrive at university not knowing how to boil an egg or how to brown mince. And I don't think that that is entirely the fault of the parents, where is the student's responsibility in this?

I suppose I stand on the sidelines a bit here.
I don't really see it as relevant whether or not someone could, if asked, cook a meal without reference to any outside material.

I didn't know how to make scrambled eggs a few weeks ago.
So I went on the Internet and looked it up.
Less than 15 minutes later, I was eating them.

(I wouldn't know how to brown mince either. Given that I don't have a freezer, and it's awkward to buy small amounts for one person, for me that skill is not needed at the moment.)

I wouldn't say there was any fault on either the parent or the student's side, because essentially there exists no problem. If you don't know how to do something, go and look it up, and then do it!

Sorted.

My general meal plan, for the best part of a year now, has been as follows:

Get a staple (potatoes, pasta, rice, maybe kidney beans, etc) and boil or bake it.
Get something green or orange (broccoli, sprouts, green beans, asparagus, carrots, etc) and boil it.
Get something pink or red (chicken, tuna, sausages, etc) and bake or fry it. In the case of tuna, just eat it.

I would consider my diet fairly healthy (excluding the ridiculous amount of biscuits I eat), and it requires really zero skill. The only reason for me to learn more would be to impress people when making them meals, really.

I guess I feel that cooking meals is not really in the same ballpark as student loans. You can just sort of go for it and use common sense. You want pasta to become soft and wet. Boiling it seems like sort of the thing to do. :P

2sides2everystory

The_One_Who wrote: »

So who is to blame for the complete lack of foresight on the part of the student? They are eighteen, not eight.

Well you seem to have answered your own question, and that implies a degree of contempt for rather a large section of those whom we are discussing in this thread.

I spent the summer abroad, I didn't wait until I was in the airport to buy my currency and a phrase book. I didn't wait until I was in town to book accommodation for the evening. I had the foresight to do these things prior to my arrival.

You did it your preferred way. You probably suffered a greater than average exhange rate loss, and you felt happier with a phrase book than pointing your iPhone camera at the menu or whatever. You perhaps tried arriving in a strange town once without having accommodation pre-booked and didn't have a good experience? Everyone should try it - you might be very surprised what adventures and educational experiences befall you

No. I'm saying that there is a wealth of information out there from a variety of different sources to help them in their decisions of whether university is for them and about the loans themselves.

There is a wealth of opinion that's for sure.

Reading this information should help them understand what they are signing up for.

We live in hope - depends if they get balanced opinion, doesn't it?

This board has seen students completely unaware of the terms of the loans, they seem shocked that interest is charged from the moment they receive it for example.

Do they? I thought interest didn't matter for many of them (most of them) ?

I think the section of Derivative's post about how he could study all he needs to know about Maths on the internet without actually attending university is very telling indeed. I got my first degree at university in the traditional way, but I have done a great deal of distance learning too since then. I know what he means.

So why do tuition fees have to be paid up front in advance like some form of protection was being bought? What service is actually being provided ? And where's the proof of the pudding ? Is it up front, or is that all it is - a "front".


Derivative, you really must try browning your own mince - I was past 50 before I learned but you can make brilliant meat sauce for your pasta including meat sauce for a homemade lasagne with just the same thinking you use for boiling your pasta.

500g of minced beef is enough for pasta auce for three healthy appetites so even if you are starving you will only need half of a 400g pack just for yourself.

You can just heat a frying pan with a little oil and just throw in the mince little by little so that you brown it rather than boil it in its own juice. That's the only thing to watch - if you whacked 500g straight into the pan in a lump you'd end up with it just sweating a lot!

When it's all brown with no red then you can either cook it a bit more to render out the fat to pour or dab off if you are using cheaper mince or just sling in the Dolmio at that point and let it bubble for a few minutes.

One standard jar of Dolmio 500g is enough sauce for 500g of minced beef.

The dried pasta to al dente takes no more than 10 mins, and browning the mince and heating it through with the sauce need take no longer.

Voila!

PS As for cooking for one and not having a freezer, surely there's a top corner of a fridge freezer compartment you could borrow to freeze 150 cm3 of beef mince until next week? Or if not, maybe you can store the remainder airtight after buying it with the longest date, you can safely keep the remainder in the fridge for 3 or 4 days (it's beef not pork or chicken). Then after 3 or 4 days you could brown that second batch of meat and add the remainder of the sauce but then save it another couple of days in a cooked state in the fridge, then reheat in the microwave.

The_One_Who

My first post on the issue of cooking mentioned using a recipe. Although some students can't even do that! Cooking is a "life skill", one that is pretty essential to any form of independence, which is what most students who live away from home seem to desire.

If you want to know how to cook something then you look it up. If you want to know more about student loans then you look it up. The information is available from a variety of sources.

Derivative

2sides2everystory wrote: »

I think the section of Derivative's post about how he could study all he needs to know about Maths on the internet without actually attending university is very telling indeed. I got my first degree at university in the traditional way, but I have done a great deal of distance learning too since then. I know what he means.

I'm not even talking the bits of Maths. I could do every bit of content on my degree excluding the lab sessions from home. The syllabus is even freely available. At worst I'd have to buy a few textbooks summing to about £200-300, but I could always resell them.

Lab equipment - so far, I could probably buy it all second hand, do the experiments, and sell it back for less than a few hundred quid. The most expensive kit would be high precision balances and oscilloscopes. Fourth year is likely to use far more expensive kit that may not be within the reach of an average individual.

So why do tuition fees have to be paid up front in advance like some form of protection was being bought? What service is actually being provided ? And where's the proof of the pudding ? Is it up front, or is that all it is - a "front".

In my case - it pays for lab equipment as mentioned, for lecturers, for contact time with professors that actually do know their stuff, for all of the other facilities provided (libraries, additional courses, careers services, etc).

Though not the actual objective, it does also give motivation to actually complete the degree - spending 3 or 4 years working off of your own back would require incredible motivation with only the reward of personally knowing that you'd enhanced your knowledge.

The_One_Who wrote:

If you want to know how to cook something then you look it up. If you want to know more about student loans then you look it up. The information is available from a variety of sources.

Indeed.

The_One_Who

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Well you seem to have answered your own question, and that implies a degree of contempt for rather a large section of those whom we are discussing in this thread.

I don't think it is contempt, no. I do wonder why they can't have thought a bit further ahead and learned these skills though.

You did it your preferred way. You probably suffered a greater than average exhange rate loss, and you felt happier with a phrase book than pointing your iPhone camera at the menu or whatever. You perhaps tried arriving in a strange town once without having accommodation pre-booked and didn't have a good experience? Everyone should try it - you might be very surprised what adventures and educational experiences befall you

I got one of the best exchange rates at the time, and not owning a smart phone (since I have no need) meant I did things the old fashioned way and used a book. I did have some hiccups along the way, which turned out fine, but could have required some quick thinking. I also had all the necessary copies of documents as well as contact numbers. My point was that I prepared myself prior to leaving. I already knew how to cook, but if I didn't then I would have learned how to whip up some quick, cheap meals that could be cooked using basic facilities. I didn't turn up at my first city and have to start everything from scratch.

There is a wealth of opinion that's for sure.

We live in hope - depends if they get balanced opinion, doesn't it?

Both of those are problems they will encounter all the time at university. Ultimately it's up to the individual to form their own opinion based on the information before them. Sure, they can ask their parents for guidance, but that's all it is. The parents shouldn't be doing it all for them.

2sides2everystory

The_One_Who wrote: »

Sure, they can ask their parents for guidance, but that's all it is. The parents shouldn't be doing it all for them.

Think of parents as the hapless involuntary regulator not the salesman, TOW. Then ask yourself who is misselling to vulnerable minds. It's up there with the scandal of targetting teenagers to sell them cigarettes which is why that was outlawed.

Derivative

2sides2everystory wrote: »

It's up there with the scandal of targetting teenagers to sell them cigarettes which is why that was outlawed.

'Teenagers' excluding 18 and 19 year olds are minors.

Personally I thought that age 16 was fine for tobacco, but it was probably moved to harmonise age restrictions - almost everything is 18 now.

You have brought up an interesting point though - disregarding the black market sales that happen anyway, do you think that tobacco sales should be allowed to 18 year olds?

Personally I'd say the burden imposed by nicotine addiction is far worse than any debt hangover from University. Particularly as it has almost no upsides.

Age on application is interesting though. I tend to think that the general '18 = adult' age limit set on most things has a margin of safety built in.

I was born early in the academic year, and took a year out of school due to some bad decisions on my part. That made me almost 19 on applying to University. Others will have just turned 17. Two years could make all the difference.

The_One_Who

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Think of parents as the hapless involuntary regulator not the salesman, TOW. Then ask yourself who is misselling to vulnerable minds. It's up there with the scandal of targetting teenagers to sell them cigarettes which is why that was outlawed.

An eighteen year old is classed as an adult, and the vast majority of students going to university in England and Wales will be eighteen and older. The student will have access to a lot of help and advice from schools, colleges and other organisations, and in some cases the parents are of little actual help. My parents knew next to nothing of the student loan system, so I had to find it all out for myself.

What about the just-turned eighteen year olds who go out of a weekend and get so drunk that they don't know where they are? Is that the fault of the premises selling the alcohol, or should there be at least some element of personal responsibility?