MSE News: Applications for 2012 uni starters falls, as tuition fees set to rise

melancholly

2sides2everystory wrote: »

I was barely 18 when I entered university, not 19. I had never lived away from my parents for more than a few days, never been on holiday with mates, never had to cook for myself much beyond toast and beans, never even loved . I had learned how to drive and drink beer and I had a spanking new bank account to receive my grant but that was it. I could never have been expected to make a sensible decision about taking on £50K's worth of debt.

I was by no means unique in my immaturity and I am sure the same thing could still be said for a lot of students going uni even in 2012.

this is exactly why many of us who have been through university encourage parents to empower their children to understand the decision themselves, to teach them budgeting and skills to live independently etc. it is the student signing up to the debt and that makes it really important that the student understands what it all means and doesn't blindly follow what their parents or school tells them to do. this isn't an unreasonable task and it's even more vital now when the numbers are bigger. there were various reports in the press I think before Christmas (could be even Oct/Nov, can't remember) indicating that it is the middle class students, who get a lot of help from home, who are particularly likely to not cope and drop out (the focus has always been on working class students in the past). this is a problem, and is why many many posters on this board discourage parents from making all the decisions for their children and encourage them to help them to learn skills to enable to be independent......

2sides2everystory

melancholly wrote: »

this is exactly why many of us who have been through university encourage parents to empower their children to understand the decision themselves, to teach them budgeting and skills to live independently etc. it is the student signing up to the debt and that makes it really important that the student understands what it all means and doesn't blindly follow what their parents or school tells them to do. this isn't an unreasonable task and it's even more vital now when the numbers are bigger. there were various reports in the press I think before Christmas (could be even Oct/Nov, can't remember) indicating that it is the middle class students, who get a lot of help from home, who are particularly likely to not cope and drop out (the focus has always been on working class students in the past). this is a problem, and is why many many posters on this board discourage parents from making all the decisions for their children and encourage them to help them to learn skills to enable to be independent......

I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make melancholly? Are you saying that "many of us" prepare our children for independence before they arrive at age 18 and need to make decisions about university, but many do not ?

What "isn't an unreasonable task"? Do you mean the task of successfully empowering students before they are 18 to achieve the necessary level of independence they need to be able to properly make a decision about university and the new 2012 loan scheme?

Who owns the task?

And who do you think is middle class ? Someone from a family where a parent is a graduate? Someone who is from a family of third generation stockbrokers? Someone with loadsanewmoney? Someone where a parent goes to work in a suit, tie, cufflinks and waistcoat (my eldest does for his part-time job!)

Forgive me if I wonder what planet you think you are from if you believe that those who do not achieve the task you allude to do in some way have themselves or their parents to blame for a kind of deficient second-rate prep for uni, because it probably applies to at least half who will go.

melancholly

sorry, i can't really work out how to get this point across more clearly, and god knows i've tried with you for the best part of a year, but why not, let's give it another go - the point is that it's better for a student starting uni to know what they have signed up for with student finance. that it's better for them if they can cook for themselves and work a washing machine. that it's better for them to have an idea of budgeting. that these are exactly the reasons that i would encourage parents to talk to their children about university but not decide for them. i'm saying that making all the decisions for them doesn't prepare them especially well for life as an adult, living independently.

as it goes, i think class labels are pointless as most people are in reality middle class. what i'm saying is that the latest data shows that children from wealthy families who have not had to do much for themselves can struggle when they get to uni. that's what the reports said - no more, no less.

i do think parents who give no help to their children for university are not preparing them well. equally, parents who make every decision for them and wrap them in cotton wool are not preparing them well. this shows in drop out rates and as ever, it about group statistics and not individuals.

for clarity, as everything seems to get twisted:

it is not unreasonable for an 18 year old to be able to cook a handul of meals
it is not unreasonable for an 18 year old to understand repayment terms of a student loan
imo, it is just as bad to take over the decision making as it is to leave a student to do it all themselves

2sides2everystory

Thanks melancholly, you have confirmed to me in one post that your thinking is all over the place and you are capable of doing the twisting:

You think class labels are pointless yet you use them in argument??

Of course it is reasonable for an 18 year old not yet to be able to cook a handful of meals (beyond beans on toast or to use the microwave on something bought in a plastic tray) - is that what you meant when you constructed your 'it's not unreasonable' sentences? To suggest otherwise is just wishful nonsense.

Of course it is reasonable for an 18 year old not to be able to understand repayment terms of a student loan. They are generally not equipped to understand loans or interest calculations.

Only A level Maths students would stand a fighting chance of preparing a spreadsheet which might yield some of the same numbers they have seen in the various published student loan calculators. Anyone without very good command of mathematics would not stand a hope in hell of judging how the derived actually result, particularly the interest. The best most could say is that I have googled and found them and these are the numbers.

And even Martin is encouraging them now to dismiss the interest in their thinking.

And then somehow they need to be equipped to analyse what those numbers actually mean in a political environment that moves very unpredictably right now.

Seeing someone else's results is not understanding and seeing someone else's assertions is not understanding either.

Derivative

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Only A level Maths students would stand a fighting chance of preparing a spreadsheet which might yield some of the same numbers they have seen in the various published calculators. Anyone without very good command of mathematics would not stand a hope in hell of judging where the numbers come from. The best most could say is that I have googled and found them and these are the numbers.

So of course, what you should be fighting for, as Martin is, is greater financial education in schools.

Everyone should be capable of basic mathematics by the age of eighteen. Doubly so for those intending to move on to higher education - they're supposedly the best and brightest.

How about we turn this on its' head and look at proficiency in English.

My degree is primarily in Mathematics. I got a B in GCSE English and took purely quantitative subjects at A-level.

Does that make me incapable of reading a book? Of writing an essay? Of course it bloody doesn't. I may not be as eloquent as those who have had years of practice - but I still have the basics.

GCSE Maths covers percentages.

If students are coming out of over a decade of schooling without the ability to multiply a few numbers (and it doesn't need a spreadsheet or any computer literacy, you can do it with a calculator and a bit of paper given some time), then we need to beef up that part of the curriculum in schools. I'd suggest it has a lot wider applicability than say, History or Art for most people.

2sides2everystory

EdgEy/Derivative (how did you do that by the way? ) ... you love Maths. In that regard, you are not representative of more than perhaps 5% of students entering university.

Your native tongue is English, right ... or maybe not if you think you have missed out on years of practice? No matter - you barely had to study it to any level in order to be able to be proficient in it because you are bright and you probably learned to read one language or another on your mother's knee before you even started school.

It is simply very incorrect to suggest that the maths needed to calculate loan repayments is within the immediate grasp of all university students. It is not just about percentages and you know it. It includes complex calculations of compound interest and being able to define and/or prioritise/discard important variables and less important ones.

Yes you and I know enough about it to work out something meaningful on a piece of paper given time as you say, but most can't, and moreover they especially cannot manipulate the tools they really need to understand these things properly such as spreadsheets where they might, if they were you or I, be able to build at a click the "What If" illustrations that result from altering this variable or that.

Be honest, anything less than that is not 'understanding'.

The_One_Who

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Of course it is reasonable for an 18 year old not yet to be able to cook a handful of meals (beyond beans on toast or to use the microwave on something bought in a plastic tray) - is that what you meant when you constructed your 'it's not unreasonable' sentences? To suggest otherwise is just wishful nonsense.

Really? You genuinely think it is reasonable for an eighteen year old to be incapable of cooking for themselves? Even if they are following a rather simple recipe?

Whilst I agree that the information surrounding and the importance of the student loans can be overwhelming, it is not impossible to comprehend. The vast majority will be using the figures from sites such as this to guide them, and there's nothing wrong with that. After all, they'll be using other people's work as a base for their own judgments throughout university. And again, for most people they will not have any option, if they want to go to university then they will have to take the loan.

melancholly

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Thanks melancholly, you have confirmed to me in one post that your thinking is all over the place and you are capable of doing the twisting:

lol carry on with the lectures and rants and references to sheep..... don't mind me, i'm just trying to help students, not rant about student finance.

but seriously to go back a few posts, for everyone's benefit, learn to use google before complaining about things or complaining about things not being clear. you not managing basic search terms is in no way equivalent to the information being hidden.

2sides2everystory

The_One_Who wrote: »

Really? You genuinely think it is reasonable for an eighteen year old to be incapable of cooking for themselves? Even if they are following a rather simple recipe?

Yes of course, especially in the UK. A rather large proportion of their parents are reliant on the chilled and frozen food sections at the supermarket. Had you not noticed? I agree that as a nation it is not reasonable that we tolerate and fall victim to a food industry that entices us to be lazy about cooking but we are that nation so don't blame the children.

Whilst I agree that the information surrounding and the importance of the student loans can be overwhelming, it is not impossible to comprehend. The vast majority will be using the figures from sites such as this to guide them, and there's nothing wrong with that.

After all, they'll be using other people's work as a base for their own judgments throughout university.

You are surely not suggesting that material hatched by Willetts et al, and all those who have politicked it to this point is equivalent to the substance of that which deserves study at a university? A case study for some future PPE course perhaps.

And again, for most people they will not have any option, if they want to go to university then they will have to take the loan.

You got that right ... and there's the rub ...

Derivative

The_One_Who wrote: »

Really? You genuinely think it is reasonable for an eighteen year old to be incapable of cooking for themselves? Even if they are following a rather simple recipe?

This is something I can agree with 2sides on, actually. I'm not that good in the kitchen. But then again, that's mainly because I don't deem it as something that's terribly important for me to know right now.

I need to know the ins and outs of my bank statement, the interest rate on my student loan, and the vagaries that may come with that, in order to actually function as a member of society - if I don't manage it, I could get kicked out of University for failing to pay my rent, or I could get myself into a terrible mess racking up thousands on high interest credit cards.

By contrast, not being able to cook up complex meals doesn't really affect me that much. I wouldn't be able to put on much of a dinner party, but if I want a healthy meal, I cook a bit of pasta, boil two veg, and stick a chicken in the oven. No recipe required other than knowing chicken probably shouldn't be pink when you eat it.

Your native tongue is English, right ... or maybe not if you think you have missed out on years of practice?

The practice I've had in speaking and reading English over the years is roughly comparable in my opinion to the exposure to Mathematics people generally have.

When you buy items from the supermarket, you're using Maths. When you drive somewhere and figure out how long it takes, you're using Maths.

Not top level stuff, sure, but neither is my reading children's books and magazines. You don't need to know vector calculus to calculate interest on a loan.

Remember also that English is far, far more complex than Mathematics. Adding two numbers is something that just works, every time. Once you know the rules, you've got it cracked. By contrast, the English language has tens of thousands of words, lots rules with regards to spelling and grammar, strange edge cases, bits to catch you out like their/there/they're, etcetera.

EdgEy/Derivative (how did you do that by the way? ) ... you love Maths. In that regard, you are not representative of more than perhaps 5% of students entering university.

I changed my username through sheer brain power alone. Uri Geller would be jealous.

With regards to loving Mathematics - that might not be far off the mark, but I don't love English. Should that make me incapable of understanding the terms and conditions of my student loan?

At some point, you have to draw a line and say that if students don't understand the consequences of what they are signing up for - then they should have the sensibility to stand on their own two feet and not do it, or at least educate themselves first.

Everything is available nowadays on the Internet. Absolutely everything. I could learn everything I'm studying now on my degree course sat in an armchair studying Wikipedia and the rest. I'm only here for the pressure, the environment, and the bit of paper at the end of the degree telling future employers that I actually did it.

If I needed to cook up a fancy meal, I'd get a recipe off the net, buy the ingredients, and play about for a bit. It's not some voodoo science that can only be passed down by parents.

Without meaning to sound arrogant, I know more than my parents about the student loan system. To me, that simply makes sense - I'm the one it affects.