Nice people thread part 5 - nicely does it

vivatifosi

I'm having trouble articulating an answer to that chewy, but will do my best. Churches, synagogues, mosques are places where people practice their belief systems. You may not agree with them, but they are the sanctuary, where people find solace in their beliefs. You shouldn't force them to allow marriage. Ok, let's look at this differently. As a woman, I'd like to see a greater role for women in the church, but not all churches allow that. The only line I do draw is that they shouldn't be able to preach hate.

Hotels, shops, etc. They are different, they are commercial entitites. They should not be allowed to discriminate on the grounds of colour, religion, sexual preference or other minority group. It's not that long ago that guest houses had signs outside proclaiming 'no blacks, no irish, no dogs'. We can't go back to anything like that and rightly so.

JonnyBravo

Couldnt agree more chewy.
I suspect our atheist position makes it easy for us to make such judgements whereas (some of) the religious who claim to believe in equality and fairness etc must see their approach is downright hypocritical but of course are powerless to decide which is the "lesser evil"

sss555s

vivatifosi wrote: »

You can join Costco if you run your own business too Pastures, though I do accept that you don't have one nearby. The Hertfordshire NPs have it easy because there's one in Watford. Your nearest one is Bristol, which is a ridiculous distance. I think zag will have one a bit nearer than you.

I used to have a Costco card for a few years but found being around 80 miles from my nearest (Glasgow and Edinburgh), you felt you had to make it worth your while. This would end up being a large spend and a lot on what you didn't really need.

I let it go in the end but I'd use one if it was in my area.

lostinrates wrote: »

I find beebs and cameras no use.

The trick is to ignore the camera while reversing but use it to gage how close you want to be when almost stopped. The bleeps are just a good aid to let you know to be aware your close to something. Takes more than a few days use to get the best out of this kind of system.

I still rate wing mirrors are the best gadgets on cars by a mile.

silvercar wrote: »

The new Nissan qashqui has 4 cameras! One on each side, for true 360 degree visibility. Not that I want a qashqui.

I can see how 4 cameras with a quad view screen would work well in a car.

lostinrates

JonnyBravo wrote: »

Couldnt agree more chewy.
I suspect our atheist position makes it easy for us to make such judgements whereas (some of) the religious who claim to believe in equality and fairness etc must see their approach is downright hypocritical but of course are powerless to decide which is the "lesser evil"

No, my commitment to equality extends into protecting those who want to believe codswallop like homophobic things WITHIN their temples and walls...i thik people who run b and b in their homes sh Ould be allowed to turn people away.......and we who disagree with them should have the right to discriminate against their offered service,

Not beyond home and temple do i support any such discrimination though.

I find not allowing people to practise belief...not legal equality but belief....is similarly discrimiatory.


Viva, i take your point abput marriage as a term. I am happy to be married...civil ceremony, but perhaps religious marriags could be 'holy matrimony ' or some such if people feel the need to display a religious union as well as a civil recognised one.


I wonder what dh and i would have done were that the case? I guess still a civil union. Husband and wife are both quite unattractive words!

sss555s

vivatifosi wrote: »

Thanks Zag, well changing the subject completely, I really need Gen if he's around. DH is going to Sydney the end of the week. You know that thread a week or so ago "how far would you go for a weekend"? He's going to a concert and will be away 4 days....

You sure he isn't going to watch the GP and just not letting on?


Edit, What concert can be worth going that far for?

vivatifosi

sss555s wrote: »

You sure he isn't going to watch the GP and just not letting on?

Unless he's secretly going Virgin Galactic he's actually going to be flying and miss the GP:rotfl:. I think I'm the bigger F1 fan. He loves motoGP as an ex-biker. In reality we are a union of petrolheads.

JonnyBravo

lostinrates wrote: »

No, my commitment to equality extends into protecting those who want to believe codswallop like homophobic things WITHIN their temples and walls...i thik people who run b and b in their homes sh Ould be allowed to turn people away.......and we who disagree with them should have the right to discriminate against their offered service,

Not beyond home and temple do i support any such discrimination though.

I find not allowing people to practise belief...not legal equality but belief....is similarly discrimiatory.


Viva, i take your point abput marriage as a term. I am happy to be married...civil ceremony, but perhaps religious marriags could be 'holy matrimony ' or some such if people feel the need to display a religious union as well as a civil recognised one.


I wonder what dh and i would have done were that the case? I guess still a civil union. Husband and wife are both quite unattractive words!

Well of course I too back people being free to believe what they like. The problem I have is when those with those with beliefs impose them on others eg no, you're not allowed a gay marriage in this church because the vicar says so.
And yes it's complicated as ideally I don't want a vicar to be forced to marry someone they dont want to but Id rather that than gays not being allowed to marry.
As viva has said I guess we need some common sense and they should be able to get another vicar in who will marry them.
It's a tangled web for sure. Gosh I'm not sure where I've ended up now.



All in all I see far more negatives from religion than positives. I realise that's contentious, and I realise it's not the whole story and it is a source of immense comfort and reassurance in lots of lives.
Thing is, it's often not used in that way and it's used to hurt others.
That's one of the main reasons for my atheism. That and my scientific brain needing proof.

Anyway I'll move along before I cause more offence.:o

silvercar

And yes it's complicated as ideally I don't want a vicar to be forced to marry someone they dont want to but Id rather that than gays not being allowed to marry.

To be fair, I doubt the engaged gay couple would want to be married in a church that disapproves of gay marriages by a vicar who agrees with his church's views.

vivatifosi

JonnyBravo wrote: »

All in all I see far more negatives from religion than positives. I realise that's contentious, and I realise it's not the whole story and it is a source of immense comfort and reassurance in lots of lives.
Thing is, it's often not used in that way and it's used to hurt others.
That's one of the main reasons for my atheism. That and my scientific brain needing proof.

Anyway I'll move along before I cause more offence.:o

I don't know that you've caused offence Jonny. Honestly I've found this thread helpful. This is not something I can talk about at work for fear of offending anyone and its difficult to get a broad understanding of the views of others when its so easy to decend into a slanging match, so thanks everyone for being so restrained.

As with a lot of other things I'm very middle of the road on this. I guess you would call me a lapsed Christian. I stopped going to church, as I've mentioned before, when my relative was seriously injured and on life support but the church didn't offer support. I don't come from a religious family and I've stepped back from religion since. I'd still call myself a Christian, albeit not a particularly strong one. If I'm honest with myself there could be a bit of bet-hedging there.

However it does concern me that people aren't allowed to wear the cross. I'm guessing that the reason its been turned down is that it isn't explicitly stated in the bible that one should wear one, in the same way as Sikhism and arguably Islam prescribe dress. However much of the new testament builds up to one part in the story: where Jesus dies on the cross. Now whether people believe in the bible or not is up to them. What I don't understand is why they can't see the profound relationship between the Christian and this particular symbol and how it has become a worn symbol of faith. I do feel in this respect that Christianity is being discriminated against. In that respect, I feel that Christians should have as much right to wear the cross as gays have a right to get married.

This is the other part of the equation and one we haven't focused on so much. Christians feel discriminated against for this type of action in the same way that gays feel discriminated against for not being able to marry. As I said at the outset, its just a shame to common sense can't prevail a bit more.

lostinrates

JonnyBravo wrote: »

Well of course I too back people being free to believe what they like. The problem I have is when those with those with beliefs impose them on others eg no, you're not allowed a gay marriage in this church because the vicar says so.
And yes it's complicated as ideally I don't want a vicar to be forced to marry someone they dont want to but Id rather that than gays not being allowed to marry.
As viva has said I guess we need some common sense and they should be able to get another vicar in who will marry them.
It's a tangled web for sure. Gosh I'm not sure where I've ended up now.



All in all I see far more negatives from religion than positives. I realise that's contentious, and I realise it's not the whole story and it is a source of immense comfort and reassurance in lots of lives.
Thing is, it's often not used in that way and it's used to hurt others.
That's one of the main reasons for my atheism. That and my scientific brain needing proof.

Anyway I'll move along before I cause more offence.:o

I think we can disagree without causing eavh other offense johnny.

Interestingly, i have been missing church recently, which leaves me in a quandry, I cannot believe what i would have to believe to become part of a church, nor any mainstream religion, but i see a lot of positives from religion....hmm, some religions perhaps, even ones i do not have much sympathy with.