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[Almost Resolved] JSA has been signed off - Am I looking for work or self employed?
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Thanks for coming back and updating us - it is always good to know the outcome.
Re the job centre staff - they are trained in the run of the mill cases. If your situation is borderline or a little unusual, it is worth doing your own research so you can point them to the right rules (as you did).
I know this to be the case as I once had an interview for permitted work while on IB - I was given completely misleading information, because my circumstances were unusual. Even when I pointed out that she was wrong, she would not have it, but on my insistence checked with her manager who confirmed I was right.
The person who gave me the incorrect information was a Disability Adviser at the job centre....I'm a retired employment solicitor. Hopefully some of my comments might be useful, but they are only my opinion and not intended as legal advice.0 -
Brilliant! I'm glad you got it sorted. Hopefully, between us all, we managed to be of some help!0
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Yeah I can kind of understand that the norm for the staff is purely people looking for work by means of applying for advertised jobs and who would never have the desire or initiative to do any more than that. However, I would have thought that every so often you may get someone such as myself, or a handyman type person, or anyone who can provide a service looking to attempt to go a bit further in their attempts at gaining work/employment but still meeting the availability and seeking criteria. As was the case, there are fine lines between what is deemed being employed and what isnt, but it seems that the job centre staff may see it as simply black or white.
I don't mean to judge or tarnish anyone who works for the Job Centre, but I don't believe it is a job which requires too much in terms of educational qualifications in order to be employed there. And if their trianing is limited to dealing with just the "normal" circumstances, employees would likely not be so forthcoming in actually reading the guidelines fully outside of their training needs.
Anyway I was more annoyed that my original EO just signed me off right away instead of just "having a word" to say, I need to do less of my side venture otherwise I would have to sign off. With that discussion I would have agreed. What was even MORE annoying is that I had started to put on my worksheet about setting up the website even before christmas, yet at that stage he never gave me any warning that it could be seen as self employed etc and he was still allowing me to sign no problem. I actually verbally mentioned it in passing also as he was writing things down and he never seemed to be fully paying attention to what I was saying anyway.
The fact it took me about 4 phone calls to get anywhere in disputing the decision, how my EO misplaced the sign off sheet so it never went through the system, the fact he incorrectly processed a payment, the fact he never just gave me a "warning" and just signed me off, and the fact that I haven't recieved the decision in writing through the post kinda sums up the efficiency and the level at which the JC operates...0 -
Yes, most definitely! Everyone who has contributed to this thread has been most helpful! First of all by confirming my suspicions (and making sure I wasn't being delusional) and then in all the advice about following it up! So I wanna thank you all for your input! :TBrilliant! I'm glad you got it sorted. Hopefully, between us all, we managed to be of some help!0
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As was the case, there are fine lines between what is deemed being employed and what isn't, but it seems that the job see it as black and white.
I don't mean to judge or tarnish anyone who works for the Job Centre, but I don't believe it is a job which requires too much in terms of educational qualifications in order to be employed there. And in so thinking that "working" and not working is black and white, they think they know and are not so forthcoming in actually reading the guidelines fully.
You'd be right that it doesn't require much in educational qualifications (at least at EO and below level), In many cases though it will depend on how you worded things initally as people are only human and typically will make quick decisions based on inital information and this is a likely occurrence where you work in an environment with tight deadlines and targets to meet.
The decision making process is incredibly complex and unfortunately the guidance is often a very simplified version of the DM Guide which is why where in doubt they will refer to a decision maker (which won't be based in that office).
Even the DM Guide doesn't cover every eventually and in some situations they need to refer to the case law.On my "looking for work sheet" I had started to include the actions I was taking, such as setting up a website and looking for clients to sell my web and marketing services to (emails and phone calls). We are also offering some free services to local charities to include in a portfolio and hopefully maybe get some referral work. Since this is in essence looking for work, I felt it relevant to put on my sheet. It looks much better than "checked TES website for relevant jobs.....no relevant jobs available....check again in a few days".
This to me looks like a case of self employment as opposed to looking for work, however the argument can be made that you are looking for contract work as opposed to simple self employment and so would ask the question, "have you registered as self employed with HMRC" and "If you were to be offered work, on a self employed basis would you take it?". It would then be a case of balancing whether you meet the conditions of your jobseekers agreement and are you spending less than 16hrs a week looking for self employment. So long as you were meeting the conditions of your agreement and weren't spending 16hrs a week on self employment then its a simple decision.0 -
You are absolutely right, I know these people were only doing their job and what they believed to be taking the correct action. I guess like anything I am only really thinking about myself here and my own needs
. It has been a great hassle though, and had I not been still living at home there could have been some major stress with the financial burden that I would have been put under.
Like I have said earlier, with a bit more attention to the details from the EOs point of view, the common sensical route would have been suffice (ie. some kind of warning to say that my activities may incur ineligability for JSA) rather than a rash, and probably pedantic decision.You'd be right that it doesn't require much in educational qualifications (at least at EO and below level), In many cases though it will depend on how you worded things initally as people are only human and typically will make quick decisions based on inital information and this is a likely occurrence where you work in an environment with tight deadlines and targets to meet.
The decision making process is incredibly complex and unfortunately the guidance is often a very simplified version of the DM Guide which is why where in doubt they will refer to a decision maker (which won't be based in that office).
Even the DM Guide doesn't cover every eventually and in some situations they need to refer to the case law.0 -
Like I have said earlier, with a bit more attention to the details from the EOs point of view, the common sensical route would have been suffice (ie. some kind of warning to say that my activities may incur ineligability for JSA) rather than a rash, and probably pedantic decision.
I completely agree with you, having said that when I started work for the JCP I only had 4 minutes per person :eek:.
Would have been simpler just to refer the case as opposed to just closing the claim.0 -
Yeah I get that, but the fact is I was doing the exact same amount of job seeking as I had been doing since I started claiming JSA, with this other stuff being done as well as. So if I was meeting the expectations before I began this "self employed" venture, I was still meeting expectations while simultaenously doing the extra leg work.
A website could also be considered an extended online CV, or added coverage of my skills and availability, or simply just a hobby.
Plus surely the definition of employment includes self employment also? Maybe they need to word it that you only allowed to purely seek work at a current registered company and are not allowed to try to create opportunities for yourself to become self employed.
If this whole time I have not been taking steps, and working hard at it to get some kind of work or employment, then what have I been doing? Wasting time?
The whole point for job seekers is to find employment and I can proudly say I have been trying to do a lot more than 99% of others out there who simply milk it!
I have the laws as written in the HMRC guidelines well and truely on my side in my own circumstances. If the Job Centre abide by their own regulations, that becomes a very illogical problem.
Luckily, it is now not an issue, so this rant is a bit pointless, but there you goThis to me looks like a case of self employment as opposed to looking for work, however the argument can be made that you are looking for work contract work as opposed to simple self employment and so would ask the question, "have you registered as self employed with HMRC" and "If you were to be offered work, on a self employed basis would you take it?". It would then be a case of balancing whether you meet the conditions of your jobseekers agreement and are you spending less than 16hrs a week looking for self employment. So long as you were meeting the conditions of your agreement and weren't spending 16hrs a week on self employment then its a simple decision.0 -
Yeah I get that, but the fact is I was doing the exact same amount of job seeking as I had been doing since I started claiming JSA, with this other stuff being done as well as. So if I was meeting the expectations before I began this "self employed" venture, I was still meeting expectations while simultaenously doing the extra leg work.
A website could also be considered an extended online CV, or added coverage of my skills and availability, or simply just a hobby.
Plus surely the definition of employment includes self employment also? Maybe they need to word it that you only allowed to purely seek work at a current registered company and are not allowed to try to create opportunities for yourself to become self employed.
The issue of looking for self employment is this, JSA is for people looking for employment not self employment, there is nothing stopping you from doing both as long as you meet the requirements for jobseeking, activities related to self employment wouldn't necessarily count towards those of your jobseekers agreement.
If you read this board you will notice lots of threads concerning tax credit claims where people point out that when your self employed you can count your time spent purchasing goods, doing marketing activities or tendering contracts as part of the 16 or 30 hour requirement for working tax credit, your argument would suggest that if they weren't profit making they could forgo WTC and receive JSA instead which works out at a greater sum.
You can be self employed (under 16hrs a week) and claim JSA as long as you follow the JCP procedure and declare this (and continue to declare work done and earnings at each attendance). Any earnings would be deducted once disregards are applied.
I'm not being argumentative just explaining why these procedures exist.0 -
Yeah, thanks for explaining those things Killmark, I know you're not being arguementative.
But yeah, I never realised that the JC differentiated between seeking employment and seeking self employment. This is where the EO could have been a bit more helpful maybe.
I wont claim to know the ins and outs of all these different entitlements, but from my understandings of the HMRC guidelines I would not meet the criteria to be deemed self employed in my scenario until I actually got a client on board due to the expectation of payment and such. I guess it could get complex, but as I said earlier, with my line of work (and especially involving the internet/websites) can be interpreted in different ways and as such works in my favour.
I'm just happy that the issue has been resolved. I hate having to rely on benefits and just want to be able to sign off from them completely and thats what I'm just gonna concentrate on now0
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