[Almost Resolved] JSA has been signed off - Am I looking for work or self employed?

TonnnnUK

Hi all, I am in need of some help!

I've been to sign today for my JSA benefit, which I have claimed since the end of October as an out of work qualified teacher.

With a severe lack of teaching jobs in my subject, I have decided to set up a web design company with my brother in the hope to make a go of it and become self employed. (Note this is not officially declared as a company...we have just got a website set up for now...)

On my "looking for work sheet" I had started to include the actions I was taking, such as setting up a website and looking for clients to sell my web and marketing services to (emails and phone calls). We are also offering some free services to local charities to include in a portfolio and hopefully maybe get some referral work. Since this is in essence looking for work, I felt it relevant to put on my sheet. It looks much better than "checked TES website for relevant jobs.....no relevant jobs available....check again in a few days".

Only today, when I went to sign, my supervisor (I get switched between this guy who I initially saw, and a lady who I usually sign with) today was the man and he asked me about how often I was working on this "IT Project", as he put it. And I said I was doing things daily to try and find work (clients/customers). He then tells me that this is self employment and I had to stop claiming my JSA.

I then asked him how can it be self employment when I wasn't being paid? In order to get paid I need to find customers, which I translate to "looking for work". He just shrugged his shoulders and said it's because I have been working on this more than 16.5 hours a week and I cannot claim.

I could have (should have) just not mentioned my sideline "IT Project" and they would allow me to claim JSA, or I could say "I only work on it 16 hours a week, honest". However my honesty and commitment to try and get work has come back to bite me!

What do they expect me to do? Apply to a few jobs each week, and maybe "work" (or in my case try and find some clients who want my services) for up to 16.5 hours a week and then spend the rest of my time watching Jeremy Kyle and other daytime TV?

So he made me sign the stop claiming thing on the sheet right there :mad:

In all honesty I'm really hoping to get a few clients on board in the next few weeks and then I won't need to claim. I hate having to claim as it is, but this has really made me angry! I am trying very hard to get something set up and done properly and the JSA allows me to pay at least some rent while I try to kick start my business.

So really I'm asking people what the definition of looking for work is, and is my circumstance actual self employment?

I'm going to call the job centre helpline tomorrow but thought I'd see what response I got on here first.

Thank you for your time.

Charityworker

Yes I think you are self employed. Looking for work in jsa terms means looking for employment. If your looking for clients for your own business purposes it's self employment.

If I were you I would register as self employed online right now then tomorrow morning ring the working tax credit and start a claim for that.

Nyfle

Hmm. I may be wrong - it's been quite a few months since my stint on JSA - so do hold on for the more knowledgeable on here... But I do remember being explicitly told by more than one EO when I was signing on and starting my own business, that there wasn't such a hard and fast rule.

Without going on and on, I was told that I could spend as many hours as necessary building up my business, as long as I was still available for work and satisfying the conditions of my JSAg. Unpaid work (e.g. work experience), voluntary work - absolutely fine. The problem areas are falling short of the JSAg, of course, and with paid work over 16 hours or full-time education.

Think about it: you could be spending your 'off' hours - 6pm 'til bedtime say - putting in all the necessary, unpaid leg work in to get your start-up ready for servicing clients with business hours dedicated to job-seeking.

Mind you, if the steps you have been recording each week revolve mostly around your self-employment venture and less so toward actual contact with employers, I can see how that would be problematic. But that all depends on your JSAg and what conditions it sets. If you were to put the steps related to your 'business building' to one side, would you have still been satisfying your JSAg?

Again, I could be wrong in all of this, although I hope I'm not, or a lot of people at a certain north Lodnon JCP have been getting very dangerous advice I imagine. Either way, you need a definitive answer, and the best way to get that (IMO) is to arrange an appointment at your JCP and get them tell you exactly where in the regulations it says that you can't spend more than X hours working, unpaid, trying to get some self-employed work so that you can sign off.

If you've got time for some, er, very heavy reading... a Google for "jobseekers dmg" (first hit) might help shed some light. And if you get really bored there's always the regulations themselves.

TonnnnUK

CharityWork and Nyfle, thank you very much for your replies.

Nyfle, your stated scenario sounds like my predicament. I have been looking for employment and have been available for work the whole time of claiming thus far, however there is only really so much I can do as a teacher. Checking the Times Educational Supplement weekly (this is where the majority of teaching jobs get posted) and a few other jobsites on the off chance there are some different teaching roles posted there. My superviser person even said if you look on there and there are no roles just put down that you checked but no suitable jobs and thats ok. I could have just put that down on my looking for work form 5 times per week and they would be satisfied. But then I want to make it look like I'm making more of an effort and so I reveal my other dealings and now I am exempt from claiming. It's annoying.

I also started looking at web developer jobs and such but most of them want at least a years commercial experience, which I don't have and so I figured it would be a good idea to go it alone and start up for myself.

While I have still been looking for teaching roles and putting this on my seeking form, it has got more things related to my business start up activities more recently, as I deemed these to be job seeking (but as pointed out, this is more client seeking for own business). In all honesty I have my heart set on developing my business ideas and working for myself, so this has kind of taken over in regard to priority over the job search.

It really is quite annoying though, when there are people who really dont look for work but claim anyway and get away with it. And I'm trying really hard and then apparently falling foul.

Anyway I'll give them a ring, and look into the working tax credits thing. If all goes to plan, I'll start getting clients by the end of the month and all this will be redudant anyway. Well that's the hope.

Thanks again folks, any more feedback is greatly appreciated.

TonnnnUK

I just called up the local job centre to ask to dispute my decision. The bloke there gave me the number for the central job centre switchboard and then they put me through to the local branch. This nonsense continues.

The guy I spoke to was nice and friendly and after taking my details he went to look at my claim before calling me back. When he called me back he said I'm still on the system and it hasn't been signed off. I asked if there is potentially a delay in it going through to be signed off given it was just the other day, but he just said I was best talking to my EO (who I really want changing if I was to continue signing).

So now I have a number to call this guy who signed me off, who I really don't wanna talk to and am no closer to disputing the matter. The system seems awful and inefficient.

MissMoneypenny

I could be wrong here and I'm sure others will correct me if I am, but won't you be better doing what Charityworker suggests and claiming Working Tax Credits? As the rules stand at present (until Universal Credits comes in) there seems to no requirement on making much of a profit (if any) as you claim according to the hours you work per week and not how much you make per week.

That's the extent of my knowledge on tax credits, but someone else might be along to help you on this.

Nyfle

TonnnnUK wrote: »

I just called up the local job centre to ask to dispute my decision. The bloke there gave me the number for the central job centre switchboard and then they put me through to the local branch. This nonsense continues.

The guy I spoke to was nice and friendly and after taking my details he went to look at my claim before calling me back. When he called me back he said I'm still on the system and it hasn't been signed off. I asked if there is potentially a delay in it going through to be signed off given it was just the other day, but he just said I was best talking to my EO (who I really want changing if I was to continue signing).

You can ask to see another EO when signing, all you need to do is write a letter (to be preferably hand-delivered) to the customer service manager at your JCP. And if you do go the (IMO sensible) route of taking said letter down there yourself, make it clear at reception what it's regarding. You don't need to give them reasons, just say the letter is for the customer service manager requesting that you be assigned a different EO for signing.

However, since there is usually a delay of anything up to 5 days for for signed ES40s to be processed, it's possible yours is in a pile at your JCP waiting for someone to begin the process of closing down your claim. So if you do decide to go this route and fight this - and I certainly would if I were in your shoes - you need to act quickly.

TonnnnUK wrote: »

So now I have a number to call this guy who signed me off, who I really don't wanna talk to and am no closer to disputing the matter. The system seems awful and inefficient.

It certainly is one hell of a convoluted, illogical system. But with the above advice you would be able to completely take the EO that signed you off out of the lovely fortnightly experience that is signing on...

MissMoneypenny wrote: »

I could be wrong here and I'm sure others will correct me if I am, but won't you be better doing what Charityworker suggests and claiming Working Tax Credits? As the rules stand at present (until Universal Credits comes in) there seems to no requirement on making much of a profit (if any) as you claim according to the hours you work per week and not how much you make per week.

That's the extent of my knowledge on tax credits, but someone else might be along to help you on this.

Unless I've misread the initial post, TonnnnUK still needs to actually find some paid clients before being able to claim WTC. Even so, WTC may help temporarily, but with the way the tax credits system is changing, specifically the changes relating to the assumption that those who are self-employed would be earning at least NMW, it's not really a long-term solution. It might work if the OP is able to find paying clients that have them working over 30 hours a week sharpish, though!

Sixer

I think the JSA adviser was wrong and you are still unemployed.

You need to meet the "remunerative work" and "expectation of payment" requirements to be classed as self-employed and/or eligible for WTC. In particular, you will need to secure at least one client/job before claiming. See www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ccmmanual/CCM6750.htm. Also www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/tcmanual/TCM0126260.htm, www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ccmmanual/ccm6745.htm and www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ccmmanual/CCM6760.htm.

However, the adviser may, or may not, view your seeking work in this way as acceptable "steps" in seeking work. They may expect/require you to also apply for employed vacancies to satisfy the JSA conditonality.

TonnnnUK

Again, thanks for your response guys.

MissMoneyPenny - Thanks but from my very very basic knowledge and assumptions of working tax credits, I'd imagine to claim it requires all kinds of paperwork that simply doesn't exist. There is no registered business or payroll or clients or anything. This venture could even be passed off as a mere hobby. The idea behind it is that I'm just as, if not more likely to find my own work than get employed and if I were to manage to find just a few clients I could officially make it into a business and of course stop claiming JSA.

Nyfle - Thanks for your advice regarding a change of officer. The pair of them I have been seeing really were not much use. The woman never even looked through my job search, only looked for the final entry and signed it. Anyway it was slightly annoying this guy on the phone didnt suggest a plan of action I'd need to take to dispute the decision in the event that it has been signed off (Which it has been, but the system doesn't say so). If there was a process to go through he should have pointed me in the right direction as I really don't want to have to go through the entire application process again where they start asking for proof of uni grants etc.

Sixer - Thanks again for your input and there is a chance that the advisor thought I wasn't taking acceptable steps as you put it. But if he actually looked at it properly and didnt just skim read he would see I have been looking for and applying to advertised positions. My hand writing is actually terrible, so I'd be suprised he could read all the entries, yet he never once asked me what things may have said that I had wrote down. And especially more so since English is obviously not his native language. He never did say anything about not meeting expectations though, so I don't think that was the case anyway.

He probably hasn't fully understood the scenario that was painted. It was only a very quick exchange that led to him suggesting I had to stop claiming and sign off.

So I'll to get hold of him tomorrow, try to iron it out, if he still aint having it I'll ask to speak to someone higher up.

Thanks again for all the advice, it's a real help....making sure I am not just seeing things in a bias way in my own favour.

zzzLazyDaisy

Just to say, unless things have changed, all that is necessary for tax credits is for you to declare that you are working x number of hours building up the business and to keep a diary of the work you actually do, together with receipts for all expenses involved in the business. You register with the tax man as self employed and claim tax credits. Apparently the tax credits department accept that it takes some time for a new business to make a profit.

I understand that this will change when universal credits come in, but for the moment OP may well be better off registering as self employed, and claiming tax credits. It would be worth phoning the tax credit helpline and asking the question.

Sixer

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

Just to say, unless things have changed, all that is necessary for tax credits is for you to declare that you are working x number of hours building up the business and to keep a diary of the work you actually do, together with receipts for all expenses involved in the business. You register with the tax man as self employed and claim tax credits. Apparently the tax credits department accept that it takes some time for a new business to make a profit.

I understand that this will change when universal credits come in, but for the moment OP may well be better off registering as self employed, and claiming tax credits. It would be worth phoning the tax credit helpline and asking the question.

This is a dangerous tactic. As per the HMRC manual references I posted above, the OP would need a reasonable prospect of payment and/or at least one firm client before meeting the official requirements for being self-employed.

It's true that self-assessment is taken on trust to some extent, but nil or very low profits will ring warning bells, at which point HMRC will investigate, PARTICULARLY if a WTC claim is also running. The OP could very easily find themselves without a JSA claim and with tax credits disallowed.

There have been several threads on here of late where precisely this has happened. Low profit self-employed WTC claimants have had their claims disallowed and have found themselves with whopping overpayments.