[Almost Resolved] JSA has been signed off - Am I looking for work or self employed?

Sixer

TonnnnUK wrote: »

Sixer - Thanks again for your input and there is a chance that the advisor thought I wasn't taking acceptable steps as you put it. But if he actually looked at it properly and didnt just skim read he would see I have been looking for and applying to advertised positions. My hand writing is actually terrible, so I'd be suprised he could read all the entries, yet he never once asked me what things may have said that I had wrote down. And especially more so since English is obviously not his native language. He never did say anything about not meeting expectations though, so I don't think that was the case anyway.

He probably hasn't fully understood the scenario that was painted. It was only a very quick exchange that led to him suggesting I had to stop claiming and sign off.

So I'll to get hold of him tomorrow, try to iron it out, if he still aint having it I'll ask to speak to someone higher up.

He would be unlikely to know anything about what the HMRC manual says about the definition of reasonable expectation of payment. He is a DWP employee and administers out-of-work benefits, you know? But, if you did do as some advise, and start self-assessment together with a WTC claim, it's precisely the question the HMRC official dealing with your assessment and tax credit claim would ask.

For this reason, you're probably right: he hasn't understood exactly what you've been doing. I would suggest printing off the relevant sections of the HMRC manual I linked to earlier when you go to clarify the situation.

TonnnnUK

Sixer wrote: »

He would be unlikely to know anything about what the HMRC manual says about the definition of reasonable expectation of payment. He is a DWP employee and administers out-of-work benefits, you know? But, if you did do as some advise, and start self-assessment together with a WTC claim, it's precisely the question the HMRC official dealing with your assessment and tax credit claim would ask.

For this reason, you're probably right: he hasn't understood exactly what you've been doing. I would suggest printing off the relevant sections of the HMRC manual I linked to earlier when you go to clarify the situation.

I was referring to the reasonable expectation in terms of the steps I'm taking in seeking work. In this case I don't think he has fully read my looking for work sheet where I have put down that I have looked for and applied to some relevant jobs AS WELL AS the activities I have been doing for this side project to get my own clients.

As someone pointed out above, the conditions set in order to claim JSA are that I am available for work and am actively seeking employment. Which I am to both. At the same time I am actively trying to create my own work by reaching out to potential clients (for more than 16.5 hours a week admittedly), but I do not have any clients as of yet.

It's like I'm being punished for being productive, or they just want me to be the stereotype in that I watch daytime TV for hours instead of trying to get something sorted!

Thanks again for your replies.

TonnnnUK

Sixer those links you posted above to the HMRC site are fantastic, thank you for those. They definitely confirm my circumstances do not meet the criteria of being self employed or doing remunerative work, and again with the expectation of payment factor also.

Gonna have some lunch and ring the guy armed with my ammunition. Try to arrange a meeting or to talk to someone else who can deal with the issue.

TonnnnUK

So I got through to him, explained that I think he shouldn't have signed me off based on the criteria on the HM Revenue and Customs website about being self employed.

His response was that I had to sign off because I was working on my website and such for more than the 16.5 hours as recommended by the Job Centre. I said to him that it wasn't paid word, but he was adament that it doesn't matter, it's more than the 16.5 hours specified.

After this I said ok well what if I said I work on it for 2 hours per day instead? Then he said if you want to dispute it we can send a form. So I asked him to send that for me.

I wish I asked to speak to his manager but that didn't pop into my head. So now I gotta wait for a damn form to arrive.

Might it be worth ringing the job centre to see if I can speak with or arrange a meeting with any manager person who would be available to discuss disputes with? Or is is just likely that any dispute has to be resolved by paperwork? It wouldn't suprise me.

Nyfle

TonnnnUK wrote: »

So I got through to him, explained that I think he shouldn't have signed me off based on the criteria on the HM Revenue and Customs website about being self employed.

His response was that I had to sign off because I was working on my website and such for more than the 16.5 hours as recommended by the Job Centre. I said to him that it wasn't paid word, but he was adament that it doesn't matter, it's more than the 16.5 hours specified.

Well, I'm fairly certain he's wrong based on what I've been told in the past and the references from Sixer above. More below...

TonnnnUK wrote: »

After this I said ok well what if I said I work on it for 2 hours per day instead? Then he said if you want to dispute it we can send a form. So I asked him to send that for me.

I wish I asked to speak to his manager but that didn't pop into my head. So now I gotta wait for a damn form to arrive.

Might it be worth ringing the job centre to see if I can speak with or arrange a meeting with any manager person who would be available to discuss disputes with? Or is is just likely that any dispute has to be resolved by paperwork? It wouldn't suprise me.

The form that's being sent out to you is a GL24. You can either wait until it arrives, or print one off yourself. It's available on the DWP website here.

Since it's Friday and the JCP is now closed, there's not much you can do until Monday unfortunately. But you could get a GL24 printed off and filled out ready to be handed in on Monday morning. And when it comes to handing things over at reception, always ask for a receipt!

There is a chance, however, that your claim hasn't been closed yet. So, if I were in your situation, I would forget that the EO who got you to sign off exists and instead go down to the JCP on Monday morning and ask to see the customer service manager and explain your situation to them (that you're still actively seeking employment, that for the last 2 weeks you've done N steps to satisfy your JSAg, that you are working toward the goal of being self-employed but currently have no paying clients etc.).

I've got 3 minutes to leave so can't advise further right now. But one thing that would help you is knowing exactly where the boundaries are with regard to unpaid work. That answer can be found either in the regulations or the decision makers' guide for JSA. I don't have time to dig through that right now, but if you need help there I can have a look over the weekend.

TonnnnUK

Nyfle I really appreciate your help and advice. Thanks a lot for that link to the form as well. I don't think I would have found that myself.

I will do as you say and head down on Monday to see the customer service manager armed with my knowledge.

This thread has been a great help, so thank you once again to everyone who has contributed.

dookar

It sounds as though the adviser has decided you are in remunerative work, he is not a decision maker and has absolutely no right to do so.

This is outside my area of expertise, so I won't advise you but I have copied a couple of paragraphs from the DMG below.

Remunerative work
1
is work for which payment is made, or which is done in
expectation of payment and in which the claimant is engaged for not less than
1. 16 hours a week or
2. 16 hours a week on average where the hours of work fluctuate

20233 Work “done in expectation of payment” means more than a mere hope that payment
will be made at a future date
1
. There should be a realistic expectation of payment.
An established author writing a book in his field has a realistic expectation of
payment. A person who is not an established author and has no agreement for
publication does not have a realistic expectation of payment

.

TonnnnUK

Yet another phone call, yet more shambles.

My EO seemed to have put my sign off form in the wrong place. The woman I spoke to was asking me about the circumstances in why I was being signed off. She agreed that since I was "working" on my website for more than 16.5 hours a week I was therefore self employed because the website is apparently a business. I argued my case about not meeting the official guidelines to be deemed self employed or doing remunerative work.

She stated that if I was working for 16.5 hours a week, I aint therefore looking for work/employment for 40 hours a week (I have never seen it stated anywhere that job seekers are to be seeking work for 8 hours a day). I nearly said "are you telling me everyone claiming JSA are not sat watching tv and infact are out asking for jobs, looking online etc for 8 hours, 5 days a week?". I almost laughed when she came out with that.

Anyway I said I still wanted to dispute it and she asked me to go in tomorrow for 9am.

I'll print off those official guidelines on all of these matters and argue my case and see what they say.

Sixer

TonnnnUK wrote: »

Yet another phone call, yet more shambles.

My EO seemed to have put my sign off form in the wrong place. The woman I spoke to was asking me about the circumstances in why I was being signed off. She agreed that since I was "working" on my website for more than 16.5 hours a week I was therefore self employed because the website is apparently a business. I argued my case about not meeting the official guidelines to be deemed self employed or doing remunerative work.

She stated that if I was working for 16.5 hours a week, I aint therefore looking for work/employment for 40 hours a week (I have never seen it stated anywhere that job seekers are to be seeking work for 8 hours a day). I nearly said "are you telling me everyone claiming JSA are not sat watching tv and infact are out asking for jobs, looking online etc for 8 hours, 5 days a week?". I almost laughed when she came out with that.

Anyway I said I still wanted to dispute it and she asked me to go in tomorrow for 9am.

I'll print off those official guidelines on all of these matters and argue my case and see what they say.

Ok, if they are saying it doesn't matter whether or not you are self-employed, then they're saying you haven't satisfied your JSAg.

So you'll need to take along your book, plus any extra evidence of employed jobseeking you've done. Do you have accounts at any of the job websites? Is your CV up-to-date? Have you posted it to any of the job websites? Got copies of application forms you've sent off? All that jazz.

What does your JSAg actually say you need to do and have you conformed to it?

TonnnnUK

Yeah I guess that is what they are saying, but I can point out that my activities prior to the last week I signed were all deemed sufficient and my EO signed my book and allowed me to sign. Those last two weeks in my job search included the activities I had been doing beforehand (which was deemed acceptable) PLUS this extra work I have been doing.

So if my job search originally wasnt meeting expectation why was it being accepted by the EO?

I can print out the job applications I have sent to schools, and a current CV if they needed to see these things.

I am not sure what my "JSAg" is, but I do believe I have been conforming to the general expectations that I have seen/aware of.