Severn Trent water and court

samsmoot

The law says I have to pay for gas and electric - just like the law says I have to pay for water. But I never have to pay for energy I haven't used.

Cardew wrote: »

If you don't accept your water company can charge in advance, why do you accept that they can charge £2 for water, £1 for sewerage, 50p for Surface water charges, etc - all part of their ofwat approved scale of charges and conditions.

Because the Water Act says that water companies can recover water charges. It also says they can make a charges scheme as to how those charges are to be recovered. How that scheme is to operate is a matter for the water companies. This will be approved by OFWAT. Very clear.

Now, this is all to do with what the water companies can do - not what the consumer must do - other than pay water charges. The Act does not say that the consumer must make payments along the lines of the charging scheme, only that charges can be recovered. If you used three months worth of services, the law says that the money for those services can be recovered. Now this may look like splitting hairs, but isn't this what the law is about? OFWAT has no power to decide that I should pay in advance - a county court would be correct to order payment for services supplied, but not for some imaginary services which may or may not be used at some point in the future. Could they ask for and get via a court order two years in advance? Three? Ten? Apparently so, if OFWAT had no objections. Does this mean you owe ten years? Would a judge order you pay it?

Yes, if I am wrong it is bad advice I am giving - hence my desire to get to the bottom of things. But if they actually don't take people to court for advance charges, how are we ever going to find out for sure?

Cardew

OFWAT approve the company's charges and conditions - end of story. ofwat are the Regulator appointed by Parliament under the Water Act.

There is nothing more frustrating in a discussion than inventing an absurd hypothetical situation, and then as some sort of proof give reasons why that absurd situation would not pass muster.

Why not test your 'theory' and put in a complaint - it is very simple ' I consider it unlawful to charge water customers in advance and request a ruling' you can take it as high as you want. See your MP.

I suspect you know the result.

samsmoot

I do not claim that it is unlawful to charge in advance - only that no law requires payment in advance.

Sorry, they can ask only up to 12 months - me silly.

Here is the relevant section:


'143 Charges schemes.

(1)A relevant undertaker may make a scheme (“a charges scheme”) which [F1has effect in relation to a specified period of twelve months and]does any one or more of the following, that is to say—

(a)fixes the charges to be paid for any services provided by the undertaker in the course of carrying out its functions;

(b)in the case of a sewerage undertaker, requires such charges as may be fixed by the scheme to be paid to the undertaker where, in the circumstances set out in the scheme—

(i)a notice containing an application for a consent is served on the undertaker under section 119 above;

(ii)such a consent as is necessary for the purposes of Chapter III of Part IV of this Act is given by the undertaker; or

(iii)a discharge is made in pursuance of such a consent;

and

(c)makes provision with respect to the times and methods of payment of the charges fixed by the scheme.

(2)The persons who may be required by a charges scheme to pay any charge fixed by virtue of subsection (1)(b) above shall be the person who serves the notice, the person to whom the consent is given or, as the case may be, any person who makes a discharge in pursuance of the consent at any time during the period to which, in accordance with the scheme, the charge relates.

(3)A charges scheme which requires the payment of charges where a discharge has been made in pursuance of such a consent as is mentioned in subsection (1)(b) above may impose—

(a)a single charge in respect of the whole period for which the consent is in force;

(b)separate charges in respect of different parts of that period;

or

(c)both such a single charge and such separate charges.'

So a single charge for the whole of the 12 month period can be imposed, apparently, as it looks like at first reading, but that applies to sewerage discharge only - but nowhere does it stipulate that the consumer must pay 12 months in advance. Only that they must pay. Your water company can fix the charges for 12 months - just like your window cleaner. They can ask for it all upfront - just like he can.

'(1)A relevant undertaker may make a scheme (“a charges scheme”) which [F1has effect in relation to a specified period of twelve months and]does any one or more of the following, that is to say—
(a)fixes the charges to be paid for any services provided by the undertaker in the course of carrying out its functions;'

The law says that they can fix the charges - not that they have a legal right to 12 months advance payment.

samsmoot

I did sense your frustration earlier, Cardew, and I am sorry if it appears that I won't see reason. I do not want to get anyone annoyed due to my apparent stubbornness - I just seek the truth. After reading the relevant section again I am more convinced of my position than ever. I may stand completely alone on this, but if I am sure then I am sure. Perhaps I should go on a law forum and see how they interpret the Act/s?

samsmoot

Cardew wrote: »

OFWAT approve the company's charges and conditions - end of story. ofwat are the Regulator appointed by Parliament under the Water Act.

Yes, of course OFWAT approves the charges, but where is the penalty to the consumer for non-compliance? The fact that a government appointed body says, 'yes, water companies, you can ask for 12 months in advance' does not mean that a consumer is obliged to pay 12 months in advance. The Water Act simply does not give this scope to the charges.

HappyMJ

Do you actually pay the bill at the end of the 12 month period?

WhiteHorse

It would be interesting to see if any water company would actually try this in court, and to see what their rationale would be. Would they claim advance payment as a term in the supply contract?

samsmoot

HappyMJ wrote: »

Do you actually pay the bill at the end of the 12 month period?

As I said, I don't pay anything, but that would be OK. Or even a month in advance might be fairer.

Cardew

The indisputable fact is that the companies do charge in advance. It is also indisputable that ofwat approves.

If your water is not metered, your charges will be based on rateable value. These charges are payable in advance. This is similar to the arrangements for paying your Council Tax. Your payments are from the 1st April each year through to the 31st March and we will send you a bill before the 1st April. We are happy to offer a range of payment options to spread the cost. You can find out more about paying your bill by clicking on this link.

If you move in after the 1st April we will start your bill then. If you move out before the 31st March we will recalculate your bill and pay you back any money you have overpaid.
If your water is metered, you will pay your standing charges in advance but we will bill you for the water you use in arrears. You will get 2 bills a year, usually just after we have read your meter. The exact timing of your bills will vary depending on when we read your meter.

Why do I have to pay in advance? (Rateable Value)
The rateable value water bill is to be paid in advance in the same way that your council tax bill needs to be paid in advance. The bill covers the financial year 1st April to the 31st March.

So if you consider that unlawful, then raise a complaint!

samsmoot

WhiteHorse wrote: »

It would be interesting to see if any water company would actually try this in court, and to see what their rationale would be. Would they claim advance payment as a term in the supply contract?

Good question WhiteHorse - thanks for getting involved - do you think I am correct in thinking it might at least be possible that advance charges are not recoverable via the county court? You seem to concur somewhat.