Severn Trent water and court

Cardew

samsmoot wrote: »

You may be right, Cardew, but I'm going to have to stick my nose in here and argue the point.

I have been telling folk for years not to pay their water charges in advance. The difference between those other items mentioned above and water charges is that you can choose not to have a TV, Car, Insurance etc. You must, however, have a water supply. If you don't want those other things then you are obliged to pay nothing for them. If you do want them, then you accept the terms. Water, however, and sewerage removal, is a requirement by law. No law, however, states that water charges must be paid in advance. Yes, the water companies can make a 'charges scheme' along whatever lines they like, but that doesn't mean to say that we have to do what they tell us to do.

Please correct me if I have got this wrong, and yes, let's refer to the law - I'm feeling like writing but not like doing research right now but unless new laws have been introduced I don't see anything written that contradicts my belief.

IMO you are incorrect.

You are basing your argument on the premise that Water and Sewerage are required by law; and that simply isn't the case.

Plenty of rural properties get their water from a private borehole and sewerage is by septic tank. *

There is nothing at all to stop anyone in a estate semi having their water cut off to save standing charges. Many people do so when property is unoccupied. If you want water reconnected you have to apply to the water company for them to supply you; and accept their ofwat approved charging schedule.

The Water Companies are regulated by ofwat and they approve every company's charges - and that includes advance payment.

http://www.ofwat.gov.uk/consumerissues/

You should also look at the provisions of the Water Act.


Leaving aside the fact that Water services are not compulsory, if you want an example of a compulsory charge that that must be paid in advance, you only have to look at Council Tax. In April the bill for the year ahead is payable; however you are given the choice of different methods to pay.

EDIT
* You can also consider the scores of thousands of people who live in 'mobile homes' without mains water or sewerage.

samsmoot

Thanks for the response Cardew.

Generally, don't water companies have an obligation to supply water services to occupied domestic premises? My water company has not threatened to stop supplying me with water, and they never do - I don't think they are allowed to stop supplying you, are they?

Yes, OFWAT may have approved the charges scheme, but unlike council tax there is no penalty for non-compliance. The only comeback is for your water company to take court action. If my water company took me to court for non-payment of advance charges, where would they point to and say 'that gives us the legal right to recover advance charges' Not OFWAT's approval, that's for sure - it carries no legal weight at all as far as the consumer is concerned - ie the water companies are allowed to ask 6 months in advance, but there is no obligation on the consumer to pay anything in advance. OFWAT have no jurisdiction whatsoever over me and my unwillingness to pay advance charges. They are the water regulator and they tell water companies what to do - not me.

Yes, I have started from the position that water and sewerage removal are required by law, but even if not required by law the reality is this: Looking at my position as a domestic consumer, I am currently being supplied by South Staffs. I never asked them to supply me, they just do. I do not believe I can force them not to supply me whilst I still live at the property, therefore I must continue to receive water from them. In any event they do supply me and I have to pay for it, but once again I ask - has anyone ever been forced by a court to pay advance charges? After putting in a decent defence, that is?

Cardew, I am not a legal expert but I know what I have read - and I have read nothing that says I have to pay advance charges. I don't want to annoy you or waste your time but I really want to know where we stand on this. Can you - if you wouldn't mind and have the time - please show me the letter of the law which requires I pay advance charges to my water company? If proven wrong I will have to alter my position - I would hate to put someone in trouble due to my ignorance.

Many thanks for listening - I do go on a bit, but I feel strongly about this subject.

HappyMJ

Council ask for money a year in advance...in April...they offer as a method of payment the opportunity to pay monthly. If a payment is missed they send a letter reminding the customer to pay. If that letter is ignored or a payment is made and another payment is missed then they go to court to get the remaining amount due for the 12 months. They don't just ask for the one missed payment. They go for the lot and get a liability order declaring the amount is owed by the customer to the council with which the council can take further action.

Almost everything which isn't metered is paid for in advance. If the due date for that payment is missed then the creditor could go to court to enforce payment.

The same with South Staffs...they send you a bill and give you some time to pay it... if unpaid they send a reminder asking again for payment then they if still not paid they send another reminder as a final demand then they give up sending letters and ask the court for a CCJ against the customer. The Water Industry Act 1999 gives them the power to bill and collect payment. Of course if they don't know who you are as you have not entered into a contract with South Staffs and told them who you are then they can't take court action, they can't disconnect you and they also have very little power to find out who you are so you basically get free water with little risk of court action.

Cardew

samsmoot wrote: »

Thanks for the response Cardew.

Generally, don't water companies have an obligation to supply water services to occupied domestic premises? My water company has not threatened to stop supplying me with water, and they never do - I don't think they are allowed to stop supplying you, are they?

Yes, OFWAT may have approved the charges scheme, but unlike council tax there is no penalty for non-compliance. The only comeback is for your water company to take court action. If my water company took me to court for non-payment of advance charges, where would they point to and say 'that gives us the legal right to recover advance charges' Not OFWAT's approval, that's for sure - it carries no legal weight at all as far as the consumer is concerned - ie the water companies are allowed to ask 6 months in advance, but there is no obligation on the consumer to pay anything in advance. OFWAT have no jurisdiction whatsoever over me and my unwillingness to pay advance charges. They are the water regulator and they tell water companies what to do - not me.

Yes, I have started from the position that water and sewerage removal are required by law, but even if not required by law the reality is this: Looking at my position as a domestic consumer, I am currently being supplied by South Staffs. I never asked them to supply me, they just do. I do not believe I can force them not to supply me whilst I still live at the property, therefore I must continue to receive water from them. In any event they do supply me and I have to pay for it, but once again I ask - has anyone ever been forced by a court to pay advance charges? After putting in a decent defence, that is?

Cardew, I am not a legal expert but I know what I have read - and I have read nothing that says I have to pay advance charges. I don't want to annoy you or waste your time but I really want to know where we stand on this. Can you - if you wouldn't mind and have the time - please show me the letter of the law which requires I pay advance charges to my water company? If proven wrong I will have to alter my position - I would hate to put someone in trouble due to my ignorance.

Many thanks for listening - I do go on a bit, but I feel strongly about this subject.

1. Water companies cannot cut off your supply.

2.

I do not believe I can force them not to supply me whilst I still live at the property, therefore I must continue to receive water from them.

Quite incorrect!
You simply tell them you wish to be disconnected. This from a water company's website.

Permanent Disconnections

Where a supply is no longer required to a property, we will at the
customer’s written request permanently disconnect the water
supply at the point at which it is connected to our mains free of
charge. The Company requires 14 working days notice for a
permanent disconnection.

If the property is occupied by a tenant we will require a written
request from both the tenant and the property owner.
If a customer requires a permanently disconnected property to
be reconnected, we would charge for a new connection (based
on the charges applicable at the time of restoration of supply).
The new connection would not be liable for infrastructure
charges unless the disconnection has lasted for longer than five
years or redevelopment has taken place.

Temporary Shutoff
If a customer requests a temporary shutoff because the supply is
not needed for a period of time we will lock off the supply at our
stop tap free of charge.

3. By having a water supply from a company you are bound by their terms and conditions which are ofwat approved. There are all manner of conditions and stipulations imposed upon you as a customer - anti-syphon toilets, etc etc. The relevant one from your point of view is that the bill becomes payable in April for the forthcoming year.

4. There is 'no specific letter of law' (as you term it) The Government under the Water Act appointed a Regulator to control the industry. The Regulator approves the water companies scale of charges and terms and conditions. If you wish to have water supplied by your company, you must abide by those terms and conditions.

Your argument is just the same as saying, say, I won't pay £2 for a cubic meter for supplied water because there is 'no specific letter of law' saying the charge is £2.

5. To take your argument to the extreme, you would have to pay for water received each day i.e. 365 bills a year - there is 'no specific letter of law' that the companies have to give you credit;)

6. By not paying a bill when due, it is simply a civil matter of debt. You could be sued for non-payment. Court action, costs, baliffs apointed, property seized etc

Water companies are reluctant to take court action as the costs are bourne by all other users, but they would clearly win in a court.

So to summarise! You don't have to receive a water supply, if you do you have to accept the Government sanctioned conditions. If you don't want to take my word for it why not contact the Consumer Council for Water. http://www.ccwater.org.uk/

samsmoot

HappyMJ wrote: »

The Water Industry Act 1999 gives them the power to bill and collect payment.

Hi HappyMJ.


Yes, the above is as far as it goes, I suggest. Council Tax is different, as there are penalties - none with water. As it would be a civil matter a water company would need to show proof of a debt. If they are asking in April for charges for May, June, July etc, then where is the debt? Money can only be owed if it has been agreed to be paid or if the law insists on it. I do not accept that a fair minded judge, being in possession of the facts via a robust defence, would order payment of advance charges. And even if one did, that would not necessarily lead to another judge making the same finding.


Nutshelling it: OFWAT's approval for water companies to send bills for advance charges puts no obligation on the consumer to pay those advance charges.

samsmoot

Thanks for the input again Cardew - much appreciated.

The points you make all sound sensible and correct to a degree, but looking at my situation I am a tenant who is unlikely to get his landlord to agree to my water supply being stopped, so in reality I do not have the choice.

Point 3. is interesting - am I really bound by their terms and conditions, as I agreed nothing with them? And point 5. - as I say above, there is no debt until I have used the services. I would love to be sued for non-payment of advance charges, but that's unlikely.

On your summary I have to comment thus: I do personally have to receive a water supply, and even if I agree that I have to accept the government sanctioned conditions, I do not accept that a condition of receiving a water supply is that you pay 6 months in advance. I accept that the law says that OFWAT can allow water companies to ask for charges in advance, but do not accept that consumers are in any way obliged to pay in advance. Perhaps if you could change your supplier you would then be in a position to contract with them, and would be obligated to them according to your agreement with them. I have no agreement with my water company - i just started getting bills when they all got privatised.

HappyMJ

If you don't want to pay 6 months in advance why don't you get a meter and pay 3 months in arrears?

samsmoot

So given that I cannot stop South Staffs supplying me, and given that they cannot unilaterally stop my supply, I am forced to have their services - like it or not. If they are not prepared to follow through on their threats of court action to recover advance charges then they should just desist. What can they say in court? 'OFWAT says we can ask for 6 months in advance'? So what? Where is the onus on the consumer? There is none on this one, and plenty of others, I contend.

I feel we may not make much progress, as it's all hypothetical unless a court has made an order dealing with this issue.

I will, however, just say that the law can be interpreted in different ways - even solidly based 'facts' of law can be seen in different light if studied closely, such as the right of parents to home educate their children. I believe there is such a right, the government says there is such a right, but looking at the strict letter of the law i fear I may be wrong. Anyway, just wanted to point out that it's not always perfectly clear just what the position is.

samsmoot

HappyMJ wrote: »

If you don't want to pay 6 months in advance why don't you get a meter and pay 3 months in arrears?

Because I don't pay them anything - not since they threatened to county court me for - you guessed it - advance charges!

Cardew

samsmoot wrote: »

Thanks for the input again Cardew - much appreciated.

The points you make all sound sensible and correct to a degree, but looking at my situation I am a tenant who is unlikely to get his landlord to agree to my water supply being stopped, so in reality I do not have the choice.

Point 3. is interesting - am I really bound by their terms and conditions, as I agreed nothing with them? And point 5. - as I say above, there is no debt until I have used the services. I would love to be sued for non-payment of advance charges, but that's unlikely.

On your summary I have to comment thus: I do personally have to receive a water supply, and even if I agree that I have to accept the government sanctioned conditions, I do not accept that a condition of receiving a water supply is that you pay 6 months in advance. I accept that the law says that OFWAT can allow water companies to ask for charges in advance, but do not accept that consumers are in any way obliged to pay in advance. Perhaps if you could change your supplier you would then be in a position to contract with them, and would be obligated to them according to your agreement with them. I have no agreement with my water company - i just started getting bills when they all got privatised.

Do you have a written agreement/contract with your gas, electricity companies. Nobody signs contracts these days.

If you don't accept your water company can charge in advance, why do you accept that they can charge £2 for water, £1 for sewerage, 50p for Surface water charges, etc - all part of their ofwat approved scale of charges and conditions.

Do you seriously think you alone can 'cherry pick' what terms and conditions will apply to you? i.e. "I think £2 is too high and I will pay £1.47"

You probably have a marker against your account saying something like 'humour him/her - they will eventually pay and it is not worth the expense of taking court action'

If you want to bring matters to a head, instead of just getting away with your current actions. Just submit a formal complaint to ofwat - see the Consumer Council website that advance payment is unlawful.

Meanwhile you are offering people very bad advice in telling them not to pay.