The road less travelled

January20

churchrat wrote: »

Merry Christmas to all

I am glad that all has turned out well for you, Davicol, but I also feel a bit sorry for you as well. We are the same as you, both in fairly low paid jobs (nurses), a bit older ( I am 51 and we finish the mortgage next year) and have children much the same age as yours.

One of my children has had ill health from age 9, and will always find life difficult. We fell in terrible debt about a year or so after she was first diagnosed. We never qualified for any benefits (although I WOULD have taken them) and I have lost count of the times when the worry about everything piled up and I could barely even cry.

Like you, we are much better off (money wise), mortgage paid, no debt and oh likes his job. I would give up every penny, get into loads of debt if my dd could be well again. If she could one day have children of her own or even just go through a winter without catching something deadly. But it is not going to happen and I am just grateful that she is still here and driving me mad!!!

But, you know something? I have never, until you made me think about it, have thought that someone on benefits was better off than me. I am not talking about money, I mean self respect, more control over my life, trust in a family and being part of a community which supports me and my family. We have friends and an extended family that we love and argue with---and we are really, really lucky.

I have had a good life and when I think about the bad times, the fact that some people get benefits is not the first (or even last) thing I think about. You sound as tho you have a great family and a happy home, let go of the bitterness before it starts to hurt you. Why have you let it worm inside you for all this time, taking up room you could use for something else? Do you do things in your local community? school governor, charity helper/ wild life conservationist? help out at christmas shelter? Do your children do any of this? My dd helps at a local childrens charity and ds2 works at a deaf club near his university.
I have just read that last bit back and I think it might come across as preachy or bragging, when its not mean to be. I'm trying to say that sometimes bitterness and resentment can fill up space that could be used to make your life even better.

going to shut up now cos I'm getting my self confused.

Brilliant post :T:T:T:T:T:T:T:T:T:T

OP, I wonder if you spend too much time reading the tabloid press...

Person_one

elvis86 wrote: »

I get the whole "carrot is better than a stick" approach. But sometimes I can't help but think that what these people actually need to be shown, is that if you can: you work. Whether you like it or not, whether it pays a decent wage or not. It's what you do. There shouldn't be a "choice" not to.

I absolutely believe in a benefits system to act as a safety net when people are in need, but if anyone is choosing to have children and raise them on benefits, then they're obviously too generous.

I agree, if you're talking about the children, they need to be reached when they're young and shown that a different way exists and that they can have a better life than their parents.

churchrat

Person_one wrote: »

I'm going to assume the OP is referring to the self help garbage.

I had to read this once for a course in something or other (I forget)It has to be the worst thing I have ever been forced to read. I remember very little about it thankfully, I've blocked it out , like child birth pain. I do remember feeling very sorry for his wife...

JoW123

Do you know what davecol I don't often post on here but I can't let this one go..... just over 2 years ago I seperated from the father of my children because of his gambling addiction and his lies. Most of our relationship turned out to be based on lies as he is a charmer and compulsive liar and is now doing it again to some poor woman. My son was being affected by his behaviour and I couldn't put us through it any longer. I thought when I met him we would be together for ever......I was wrong.

So I work 3 days a week and get those child tax credits you envy me for which pays for the after and before school club so I can do my hours. I don't earn any where near 30k and my delightful ex has paid me nothing for a year (now going through the CSA). My kids don't get half the things their friends with the stable two parents do and I struggle to juggle it all.

I would do anything for a loving, stable partner to be with into my old age, to help me bring up the children, to help me when they are ill, to do some of the running around when they get invited to parties, in fact everthing my ex promised to be.

Yes I can see you are mad about how hard it has been financially and yes I can understand that you are cross that people on benefits have a better lifestyle, but I teach my kids by example that you have to work hard for things too (despite the fact that I am a single parent that your opening post seems to dislike so much) I really hope that one day your life does not fall down round your ears like mine did and you find yourself coping on your own because I sure as hell wouldn't wish it on anybody

clearingout

Well, this is a first for me. But being on this site has made me cry this evening.

Tell me, OP, sat up there on your moral high ground, what sort of people are your children? Are they those that bully my children in the playground? Do they tell my children that their mother should get off her 'fat backside and get a job because all single mums are s**m? Do you whisper in corners about the 'single mum on benefits' when you pick up your children, discussing her and her lifestyle (or what you assume is her lifestyle) with anyone prepared to listen to you? Do you ever think about your attitude and how that rubs off on your children? What kind of people that makes them? What kind of contribution they make to society when they judge me, a single mum? Do you know what it's like to have your 7 year old ask you why his 'friends' say you can't keep your legs closed and what does that mean? Do you know what it's like to be asked 'how on earth can you afford to live in that house? Housing benefit must be very generous. I suppose I'm paying your rent 'cos you can't be bothered to work'.

For the record, I didn't ask to be a single mum. My 3 children were born within marriage. My now ex husband had an affair with his book keeper and left me for her, taking with him our business and my means to earn a living at that time. I was just pregnant with our 3 child . We lost our home, my children had to come out of their private schooling and my ex and his girlfriend lived a lovely life, thank you very much. I worked hard during my marriage - I have a Masters degree and had always worked, although part-time since having children - and didn't get into debt and we were fortunate to have paid off a huge chunk of a huge mortgage. I came out of my marriage OK in the end - credit in ruins, but a mortgage free roof over my head thanks to my own hard work for many years plus a generous mum who was both willing and able to make up the difference. That's why I'm able to live in that house. You're not paying for it.

Without the benefit system, my children and I would have ended up in a hostel and their brother would have been born into that situation. Or, to avoid that, I'd have been forced to hand them to their father and I can assure you that I would more than likely have never seen them again. I stayed on benefits for quite some time - longer than perhaps I should have done - but the safety net was there and I used it and I am grateful to every tax payer that ever was that they helped me in that way. Today, I am a trainee teacher in a shortage area, very heavily reliant on tax credits to help me pay the basic bills and make sure the children are appropriately cared for whilst I work. I wish I was entirely independent, but I'm not. And I refuse to be ashamed of that because people like you insist I should be.

My ex pays nothing towards his children - the system as it stands seems to support those who are self employed and as such, he gets away with it. He is not a bad father - he loves his children and does his best by them. Or perhaps better said, he does what he can before it interferes with his life. I do nothing at all to interfere in our children's relationship with their dad - they will see for themselves one day and I feel sad about that. But that's the way it is. They are certainly not children who will be receiving phone contracts and cash out of guilt. The man has no conscience whatsoever.

I have been through all that and don't believe I am bitter. I accept 'sh*t happens' and that we just have to deal with it. So I have done the best that I can. I have no doubt now that you'll say that your comments weren't aimed at me. But they were. They were aimed at me as a single mother who found herself, through no fault of her own, in a desperate situation. When those children make comments to my children in their playground, they do it because they heard it in their homes. They don't have the mental capacity to discriminate between me, a single mum by accident, and the single mums you think exist who have 5 children by 5 fathers and refuse to work. (As an amusing aside, my ex left me for a woman with three children by three fathers!).

You are of course right to be proud of going it alone and managing. But I shudder to think what sort of adults your grown up children make when brought up by parents who think nothing of hurling abuse on a public forum about a large, vulnerable section of society because we don't fit into your vision of how society should be. It takes all sorts. And all sorts make our society the way it is. You may well see criminals, drug abuse, alcoholism, single mothers, benefit scroungers on every street corner. I see a society developed enough to successfully look after it's own and make sure that no child (on paper at least) goes without. That is a true sign of being 'civilised' and something to be celebrated, particularly at Xmas when so many in the world have nothing at all.

Oldernotwiser

Person_one wrote: »

I thought it was a poem...

How does it apply to your situation?

It's often thought to be a poem by Robert Frost, which is actually titled "The Road Not Taken."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_Not_Taken_(poem)

clearingout

Person_one wrote: »

These people are the now grown up children of parents who never worked. They now have their own children who risk being stuck in the same cycle themselves. A life on benefits is unappealing to most people but its all some ever know.

Making sure they don't starve is important, but that's not all that matters. They need to be shown a different life is possible and desirable, that's the tricky part.

if we want these children to grow up to achieve, we have to believe in them. Quite simply, we don't. We assume they are no good, we assume because of their parents, that they will always be problematic, will become addicts or single mums or, at best 'scroungers'. We place little value in low paid, menial work. We don't recognise that for a doctor to his job properly, the poorer paid nurses, even poorer paid health care assistants, receptionists, cleaners etc. etc. all play a part in making his job what it is. We scoff at those who need their low wages topped up, still tarring them with the 'you're on benefits' brush.

There will always be those to refuse to be the people that they are judged to be. But by far the majority will revert to type - feeling worthless, undervalued, dis-respected but never really knowing why. There is something so fundamentally wrong with how we value (or don't value) those who struggle in school, who don't get the qualifications to be rocket scientists but who do incredibly important, behind the scenes work we choose to ignore.

churchrat

clearingout wrote: »

You may well see criminals, drug abuse, alcoholism, single mothers, benefit scroungers on every street corner. I see a society developed enough to successfully look after it's own and make sure that no child (on paper at least) goes without. That is a true sign of being 'civilised' and something to be celebrated, particularly at Xmas when so many in the world have nothing at all.

:T
Quite so.

Did anyone see the tonight programe the other day about debt across the world? It has a piece about the USA, where most states have no obligation to house ANYONE. Little children are left to sleep in cars and on hall floors. Only recently has health care become available to children, even if they cannot pay for it, following the death of a10 yr old boy from a dental infection. That is a society that does not believe in the benefit system, and I am truly glad I do not live in such an uncivilised place.

FBaby

clearingout wrote: »

if we want these children to grow up to achieve, we have to believe in them. Quite simply, we don't. We assume they are no good, we assume because of their parents, that they will always be problematic, will become addicts or single mums or, at best 'scroungers'. We place little value in low paid, menial work. We don't recognise that for a doctor to his job properly, the poorer paid nurses, even poorer paid health care assistants, receptionists, cleaners etc. etc. all play a part in making his job what it is. We scoff at those who need their low wages topped up, still tarring them with the 'you're on benefits' brush.

There will always be those to refuse to be the people that they are judged to be. But by far the majority will revert to type - feeling worthless, undervalued, dis-respected but never really knowing why. There is something so fundamentally wrong with how we value (or don't value) those who struggle in school, who don't get the qualifications to be rocket scientists but who do incredibly important, behind the scenes work we choose to ignore.

Evidence has shown the most significant factor in how well children will do at school and further on in their career is their mother's achievements. Children learn a lot more by what they see, and inevitably becomes their norm, than what they are told. Children growing up in families that rely on benefits are more likely to make friends with similar children and this will become what they know as normal life.

OP, I can really sympathise with what you are saying. I was a single mum of two children and worked full-time whilst facing the same challenges every single mum face, especially when relationships with the ex is not good and family is not around for support. I'm now with a new partner, but life as a working mum, who travels over 2 hours every day to do a very demanding 8 hours day work, is very tough. My priority is to raise my kids with the best values and standards, and that demands time and attention. I believe in having a tidy house, in being a good friend, good partner, and all this is tough when you only have a little bit of time left in the day to do it all.

As long as I can recall, ie, since the birth of my soon to be 12 year old DD, I have been exhausted. Tiredness rules my life. Tonight is my office christmas party, I would have love to go, but surprise, I am not going. I couldn't cope with the pressure that if I felt shattered, I would still need to go. As it is, I am particularly knackered as I had a bad night sleep. Yes, I earn money, a decent salary, as does my partner, and we do live a financially worried life, BUT... it is not a life of luxury. I still have to watch my bank account every week, I still have to constantly tell myself no to things I wish I could get, I can't afford the holidays I dream off etc...

So yes, I also get bitter of those whose life is not seemingly that different from mine, but don't have the stress of rushing all the time to cope with. They have all the time to do what I have to do in a couple of hours a day. They look forward to being invited out, and they have the chance to show the kids enthusiasm and energy whereas my kids often get a tired mum who struggles at times to concentrate on what they are trying to tell me.

What keeps me going is exactly what you've said... it is the day they will be independent, our numerous investments (not just financial) will pay off, and our lives will finally set themselves apart. We will finally have that life of luxury (to my standard, not interested in millionaire like lifestyle!!) we will have worked hard for. Surely there has to be a point when it finally becomes all worth it!!!

I have no doubt that when it happens (if not being an alternative!!!), others will consider myself 'lucky' to enjoy what we will enjoy, with no consideration that it might be deserved, but in the end, as many have said here, it is about self-esteem, knowing that we've worked hard and deserve what we get.

FBaby

churchrat wrote: »

:T
Quite so.

Did anyone see the tonight programe the other day about debt across the world? It has a piece about the USA, where most states have no obligation to house ANYONE. Little children are left to sleep in cars and on hall floors. Only recently has health care become available to children, even if they cannot pay for it, following the death of a10 yr old boy from a dental infection. That is a society that does not believe in the benefit system, and I am truly glad I do not live in such an uncivilised place.

It all comes down to the philosophical question: Who is overall responsible for society's children, the State or their parents?