Atheist and the nativity

indebtinsussex

onlyroz wrote: »

I thought theists did believe in a personal God.

A question for the believers: does praying to God make a difference? E.g. if you, or somebody you care about, are dying, is there a chance that if you pray enough then God will choose to cure you or them? If the answer is no, then what is the point?

see I would like to say it does, I was told 6 years ago that I had lost my ds at 14 weeks pregnant, I'd hemoraged very very badly(sorry no idea how to spell that word, and possibly too much info for people), the initial scan showed I had lost the baby, I cried and prayed and begged if anyone was listening at all please give me a break, had another scan before they decided whether to operate or not and there he was bouncing about.

I like to think its because God listened to me, and its what I believe, however, I know that sceptics will say thats not the case and its coincidence

Praying doesnt always work, but it helps me and has given me comfort at some of the most crappiest times of my life

erichamster

indebtinsussex wrote: »

sorry I wasnt too sure how I could do the various quotes and put them into the same response if that makes sense, so it was a generalisation of what some people said. but in the end someone did say that believed people who follow a religion to have a lower intelligence.

nope doesnt make me feel like a martyr, and by tomorrow after running after 40 children at my sons party, I will probably have forgotten this thread, but I dont go abusing atheists in this thread so why do people feel they have the rights to abuse christians etc? Why cant we all get along in the spirit of goodwill and agree to disagree on this point etc etc etc!!!

I am the one who made the comment that you're all wrong and I'll stand by it. Saying someone or something is wrong or incorrect is certainly not abuse or offensive. I'm sure we've all been wrong about many things in the past.

And all religious people are wrong by every measure that we use to decide whether something possibly can be right or wrong.

Of course you can choose to believe in whatever you choose, as long as you don't affect others (and I would include your own children if you have any in that) with your misguided beliefs. But you are wrong, just as if I decided to believe I had a pet unicorn, or that fairies lived at the bottom of my garden, or that there is a pot of gold at the end of every rainbow, I too would be wrong.

indebtinsussex

erichamster wrote: »

I am the one who made the comment that you're all wrong and I'll stand by it. Saying someone or something is wrong or incorrect is certainly not abuse or offensive. I'm sure we've all been wrong about many things in the past.

And all religious people are wrong by every measure that we use to decide whether something possibly can be right or wrong.

Of course you can choose to believe in whatever you choose, as long as you don't affect others (and I would include your own children if you have any in that) with your misguided beliefs. But you are wrong, just as if I decided to believe I had a pet unicorn, or that fairies lived at the bottom of my garden, or that there is a pot of gold at the end of every rainbow, I too would be wrong.

deleted question

onlyroz

Torry_Quine wrote: »

No we don't believe in a personal God, rather than as Christians we can have a personal relationship with Him..

I guess we're arguing over semantics here, but this seems to suggest that Christians do believe in a personal God:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_god

I know that Einstein caused a bit of an outrage amongst religious leaders when he stated that he *did not* believe in a personal God.

onlyroz

erichamster wrote: »

I am the one who made the comment that you're all wrong and I'll stand by it. Saying someone or something is wrong or incorrect is certainly not abuse or offensive. I'm sure we've all been wrong about many things in the past.

Again, I'll argue semantics. Here is the scientific definintion of "Wrong", from Wikipedia:

A scientific concept is said to be wrong if it can be used to make specific predictions of the results of experiments, but those predictions do not correspond with physical reality (i.e. the concept can be falsified in the Popperian sense, and has also been shown to be false). Wolfgang Pauli is said to have coined the phrase "not even wrong" to describe concepts that cannot be falsified (either because they do not refer to measurable effects, or because they are too incoherent to be used to make predictions).

From this, I would put belief (of anything, not just God) into the "not even wrong" category, as defined above.

Torry_Quine

onlyroz wrote: »

I guess we're arguing over semantics here, but this seems to suggest that Christians do believe in a personal God:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_god

I know that Einstein caused a bit of an outrage amongst religious leaders when he stated that he *did not* believe in a personal God.

I guess we probably are. To me the phrase 'personal God' means your own God not the same God as others with whom you have a personal relationship.

erichamster

Torry_Quine wrote: »

For the record He isn't her God.

I am very sad that she felt abandoned, God can and does punish us when we do wrong but in the vast majority of case illness is not a result of God's punishment. That is what I was alluding to.

Actually I'm not in comfortable health and certainty and like everyone question God from time to time, that's normal!



I have to agree that was very offensive and wrong.



Why do you and others feel it necessary to use insults such as 'afflicted'?

As I said God was highly unlikely to be punishing her and it is very wrong that many feel that way.

Sorry I said you were married. Unlike you I don't like getting it wrong or being insulting to others.

I used "afflicted" because I felt it was the most appropriate word, the same reason I use any word. I would equate religious belief to a virus which infects the mind.

erichamster

indebtinsussex wrote: »

see I would like to say it does, I was told 6 years ago that I had lost my ds at 14 weeks pregnant, I'd hemoraged very very badly(sorry no idea how to spell that word, and possibly too much info for people), the initial scan showed I had lost the baby, I cried and prayed and begged if anyone was listening at all please give me a break, had another scan before they decided whether to operate or not and there he was bouncing about.

I like to think its because God listened to me, and its what I believe, however, I know that sceptics will say thats not the case and its coincidence

Praying doesnt always work, but it helps me and has given me comfort at some of the most crappiest times of my life

Then I must ask why did he choose to help you and not the 9 million children that die every year before they reach the age of 5? What kind of just god that would in any way deserve our prayers or time of day could allow that to happen? What makes you more deserving of a miracle than all those innocent children?
It's ridiculous to believe in a god at all, but to believe in one that actually acts in the world and yet allows such suffering to go on is akin to madness or a kind of blinkered selfishness of the highest order. This kind of faith is obscene and shows a fundamental lack of care or understanding of the suffering of others.

Of course it was a coincidence, a very fortunate coincidence for you and one that I would wish happen to all of us but no more than that.

GracieP

erichamster wrote: »

Then I must ask why did he choose to help you and not the 9 million children that die every year before they reach the age of 5? What kind of just god that would in any way deserve our prayers or time of day could allow that to happen? What makes you more deserving of a miracle than all those innocent children?
It's ridiculous to believe in a god at all, but to believe in one that actually acts in the world and yet allows such suffering to go on is akin to madness or a kind of blinkered selfishness of the highest order.

Thank you God for fixing the cataracts of Sam’s mum!

Thank you, Sam, for showing how my point of view has been so flawed. I assumed there was no God at all but now I see that’s cynical. It’s simply that his interests aren’t particularly broad.
He’s largely undiverted by the starving masses, or the inequality between the various classes. He gives you strictly limited passes, redeemable for surgery or two-for-one glasses.
I feel so shocking for historically mocking. Your interests are clearly confined to the ocular. I bet given the chance, you’d eschew the divine and start a little business selling contacts online.
Füçk me Sam, what are the odds that of history’s endless parade of gods that the God you just happened to be taught to believe in is the actual one and he digs on healing, but the AIDS-ridden African nations, the victims of the plague or the flood-addled Asians, but healthy, privately-insured Australians with common and curable corneal degeneration?

http://prostopleer.com/tracks/4789564xGkC

MandM90

What always makes me giggle is when athletes/performers pray before a race/competition. I'd like to think, if there were an omnipotent benevolent god, he'd try and sort out racism, AIDs, poverty and a few other things before focusing his efforts into favouring one dancer over another.

Anyway, I digress...Mojisola, that is what RE is for. As I said before I answer DDs questions about church/belief but objectively "Some people believe that there is a being who created us and they go there to speak to him etc...BUT that is not what I believe; I believe we came about through X,Y and Z" Everyone teaches their child their beliefs. My basis for mine is most of them have evidence and are peer reviewed :rotfl: