Atheist and the nativity

MandM90

liney wrote: »

But then you are assuming that heaven is a fairy story, and pushing your belief onto your child.

If she chose to believe in heaven, because a relative, or school had spoken about it, would you be telling her she was wrong?

Personally, I am a non believer, but I think pushing a lack of belief is as bad as pushing religion.

No, I'd be telling her that she can believe what she likes, but I choose to belief only what is substantiated by empirical evidence.

I'm not pushing lack of belief by saying "I don't believe X"...what do you want me to do, pretend to be a Christian so I don't accidentally pass on my non-religious beliefs? :rotfl:

I'm no more likely to tell my child there is a 50/50 chance of a God/heaven than I am to tell her I had a rendez-vous with a Martian. I'm perfectly within my rights to tell her I don't believe in something, and to hope (though I'll always support her) that she doesn't subscribe to a belief system which I, frankly, think is ridiculous.

If it's 'bad' to 'push' my lack of religion shouldn't we all be giving all children a fair chance to decide and teaching them all of the world religions? Where does it stop?

As a non-believer I don't see how you think it's wrong not to teach my child about something I don't believe in and have seen no evidence for. I really think reading to child from a book that includes genocide, infanticide, incest and slavery and teaching them about the devil is more likely to frighten the life out of her rather than enrich her life and give her a fair choice.

b_girl

MackemPunk wrote: »

That's not how it works, if you believe something it's up to you to provide the evidence that it exists.

Umm..no. If you believe something it is not up to you to 'prove' it. It's your own personal belief and if you want to believe that it's up to you and not anyone else's business. As long as your belief isn't harming anyone else then why should people be forced to prove things to others? I would never walk up to a Muslim/Sikh/Jew/whatever and demand proof of their belief...how ridiculous!

Mojisola

MandM90 wrote: »

As a non-believer I don't see how you think it's wrong not to teach my child about something I don't believe in and have seen no evidence for. I really think reading to child from a book that includes genocide, infanticide, incest and slavery and teaching them about the devil is more likely to frighten the life out of her rather than enrich her life and give her a fair choice.

I think your child needs to know about different religions in order to make sense of a lot of history. He/she doesn't need to be taught all the ins and outs of the beliefs but, if your child doesn't know about religions how would he/she understand about the crusades, the pogroms which lead to emigration from Russia or the Huguenots from France, the swinging between the Catholics and Protestants during the Tudor monarchs and the persecution that resulted, the jews and the holocaust in WW2 and so on, and on, and on.

Person_one

b_girl wrote: »

Umm..no. If you believe something it is not up to you to 'prove' it. It's your own personal belief and if you want to believe that it's up to you and not anyone else's business. As long as your belief isn't harming anyone else then why should people be forced to prove things to others? I would never walk up to a Muslim/Sikh/Jew/whatever and demand proof of their belief...how ridiculous!

Ok, I'll rephrase it.

If you believe something, and you expect other people to accommodate, respect or share that belief, then the burden of proof is on you.

You can believe whatever mad thing you want as long as you don't let it impact anybody else.

Tropez

There's an old but apt phrase...

"To the believer, no proof is necessary. To the sceptic, no proof is possible."

I have no problem with people believing whatever they choose to believe providing they do not attempt to push their beliefs onto others and accept that there are times when religious beliefs have no place in a discussion or situation, just as how I accept there is a time and a place for any arguments I might make against religion and religious texts.

As far as the nativity goes, regardless of religious beliefs, it isn't going to harm a child to learn that some people believe that this happened nor will it harm a child later to learn that there are a multitude of different religions and religious practices that exist or have existed, many of which have had social and historical consequences and implications in the development of our world. I'm not convinced that religion should be actively practiced in state schools but I don't believe that ignoring religion entirely throughout education would be a good thing. Whether I like it or not, it represents a phenomenal amount of social and historical issues, locally and globally, and therefore should not be hidden away.

People are free to make their own minds up and people will. I was born into a Christian family, attended CofE schools throughout the entirety of my education. By high school I had decided that there was no God and I was the only pupil in my class who admitted to that when our RE teacher asked whether any of us were atheists.

Torry_Quine

Person_one wrote: »

Oh the arrogance, she had faith all her life but you know her god better than she did? You have 'his' ear do you?

It doesn't matter that she felt abandoned and confused and lost in her final days, because you in your comfortable health and certainty think she got it wrong. If that's faith you can feel free to stick it wherever you deem least comfortable.

For the record He isn't her God.

I am very sad that she felt abandoned, God can and does punish us when we do wrong but in the vast majority of case illness is not a result of God's punishment. That is what I was alluding to.

Actually I'm not in comfortable health and certainty and like everyone question God from time to time, that's normal!

Jojo_the_Tightfisted wrote: »

That reminds me of an elderly friend who lost her fiance in WWII when she was 17, never met anyone else because she had a mastectomy at the age of 29, cared for her parents and worked fulltime all her life, attending church with them, being a generally ethical and nice person.

She lost both parents after long, degrading illnesses, got made redundant and not only did the breast cancer return on the other side after years, it was accompanied by advanced ovarian cancer. By the time she died - she had decided that religion was for the easily led. Her words, her decision. She had to endure constant religious Godbombing from people she had thought were her friends until she was so sick of the religion being more important than her, she ended up telling the minister to beggar off and refused all visitors other than one for her last days. And that woman, despite allegedly respecting her friend's views, made a point as she died of singing Abide With Me, as she decided 'the poor dear didn't know what she was saying'. Which was words to the effect of 'don't you dare do that religious nonsense to me like the others did'.

At the funeral service, the minister - the one who had been chucked out of her room with a flea in his ear - told everyone that she, like the woman with the haemorrhage (terribly tasteful when that was what had actually killed her), didn't think herself worthy of God and was, by rejecting everyone, demonstrating her belief that she was only worth of touching the hem of his gown instead.


That seemed pretty conceited to me, and more than a little offensive.

I have to agree that was very offensive and wrong.

erichamster wrote: »

Of course she was wrong, that's just the point, you're all wrong! But it was blind faith that led her to such a devastatingly wrong premise.
Of course you're afflicted, no right minded individual would choose to worship Yahweh so I can only imagine that you feel you have no choice.

No sky fairy or omnipotent father was punishing her or anyone else for anything, I am just sad that she (and so many others) are burdened by such thoughts at such difficult times, I am relieved to be free of them.

Also as an asides she's not my aunt by marriage, we're not married.

Why do you and others feel it necessary to use insults such as 'afflicted'?

As I said God was highly unlikely to be punishing her and it is very wrong that many feel that way.

Sorry I said you were married. Unlike you I don't like getting it wrong or being insulting to others.

onlyroz

Torry_Quine wrote: »

For the record He isn't her God.

I thought theists did believe in a personal God.

A question for the believers: does praying to God make a difference? E.g. if you, or somebody you care about, are dying, is there a chance that if you pray enough then God will choose to cure you or them? If the answer is no, then what is the point?

Torry_Quine

onlyroz wrote: »

I thought theists did believe in a personal God.

A question for the believers: does praying to God make a difference? E.g. if you, or somebody you care about, are dying, is there a chance that if you pray enough then God will choose to cure you or them? If the answer is no, then what is the point?

No we don't believe in a personal God, rather than as Christians we can have a personal relationship with Him.

That's a very deep theological question. Certainly we are told to constantly pray but ultimately it is in God's hands as to who is and isn't healed.

b_girl

Person_one wrote: »

Ok, I'll rephrase it.

If you believe something, and you expect other people to accommodate, respect or share that belief, then the burden of proof is on you.

You can believe whatever mad thing you want as long as you don't let it impact anybody else.

In my experience, nobody I know gives two hoots whether people believe the same thing as them or not. I am a Christian and don't care what people think of my beliefs, nor do I care about what other's believe. I'd be very surprised if anyone felt as though my belief 'impacted' on them as my belief is a very private to me, as is most people I know. As far as I'm concerned at the end of the day we're all human and should be judged on our actions and what kind of person we are, not our spirituality.

Mojisola

onlyroz wrote: »

A question for the believers: does praying to God make a difference? E.g. if you, or somebody you care about, are dying, is there a chance that if you pray enough then God will choose to cure you or them? If the answer is no, then what is the point?

Some people take a lot of comfort from praying. It doesn't have to change the outcome but people can feel supported and that they are, in turn, supporting the dying person.

It doesn't matter whether what they believe is true. If it makes them feel better or cope more easily with adversity, I wouldn't want to stop them doing it.