SORTED - Supermarket scrape - what will happen next?

abi-em-mum83

How selfish of your nephew, and if he is such a new driver then the Highway Code should still be fresh in his mind, and the excuse of not knowing will not wash. How would he like it if it happened to his car, bet he would expect that person to leave their details! People like your nephew are the reason the rest of us careful and considerate drivers are paying extortionate insurance costs, to cover idiots who think its ok to damage someone elses car and drive off! Lets hope the police execute their full powers and take him off the road until he learns how to drive properly, as well as learning the rules of the road!!

SRH_2

abi-em-mum83 wrote: »

How selfish of your nephew, and if he is such a new driver then the Highway Code should still be fresh in his mind, and the excuse of not knowing will not wash. How would he like it if it happened to his car, bet he would expect that person to leave their details! People like your nephew are the reason the rest of us careful and considerate drivers are paying extortionate insurance costs, to cover idiots who think its ok to damage someone elses car and drive off! Lets hope the police execute their full powers and take him off the road until he learns how to drive properly, as well as learning the rules of the road!!

Hear, hear! Three months ago my car was damaged in a supermarket car park - two big scratches and paint chipped off on the door from what was obviously a trolley being scraped down the side. My car is seven years old and has seen better days, but I've kept it in good condition and can't afford to buy another one. My main concern is not how it looks, but making sure it doesn't develop rust patches. I would never, ever cause damage to anything (cars, property etc) without leaving a note and, quite rightly, the law agrees.

This week someone in the office block I work in tracked me down to tell me her car door had swung open in the wind (mad weather this week!), leaving quite a big dent in my car door - the same one with the scrape. She was so upset and offered immediately to pay for the repairs. There is no paint chipped off and I've now got a decision to make. Do I ask someone, just a couple of weeks before Christmas, to pay out for what was just a genuine accident? I'm going to see if my dad can straighten it out a bit (he's good like that and has a suction device for getting dents out of metal) and if the paint is not massively damaged just write it off as bad luck and not get it repaired. The fact that this lady immediately tracked me down to report it goes a long way. If she had done a runner (or my car was a brand new Jag!) damn right I would ask her to pay!

gilbert_and_sullivan

A bit of old fashioned honesty by apologising and offering to pay for damage like the post above often results in the person with the damaged car replying thanks but it's only a scatch or similar and i'll sort that out.

If it's more serious and needs a bodyshop then the cars owner is more likely to get it repaired cheaply by a local chap to keep the costs down for an honourable person who put their hands up.

The converse is true, a hit and run will result in an aggrieved claim for everything possible by most people.

If this lad had been honest and left a note there's every chance the owner wouldn't have bothered too much and an apology or a £20 note might have covered it.

Whether the police prosecute or not his insurance is going to be extortionate next time he renews within 5 years if the owner of the other car claims.

Expensive lesson.

Crabman

People in our area have been prosecuted for hit and runs in car parks. One case was where a woman reversed into a parked vehicle, looked around, noticed that someone was looking at her, so she scribbled a note and left it on the windscreen. The note said something like "Sorry for hitting your car" but no address, number, etc. The witness checked the note, called police and the driver was hauled before magistrates and received points, fine and a free mention in the local paper.

wazza - it is hard to believe that your nephew honestly didn't know he should exchange details or inform the police since you have stated, "Looking around he saw no-one and simply drove off."

If as you claim, he passed his test around a year ago, the rules should have been fresh in his mind.

He should also have been able to reverse the vehicle without carelessly colliding with a non-moving object.

It is incredible that he thought there would be some sort of exception because "the other car was old" or because it has "had it's fair share of scrapes/dents." Unbelievable selfishness.

As mentioned, your nephew should prepare to return to provisional status and receive some publicity in the local paper in return for his disregard for the basic rules of the road and respect for others' property. One more careless driver off Britain's roads.

mutley74

could he not just apologise if questioned and say he did not realise he hit a another car on reversing, and politely offer to see and pay for the damage. But does his car have any damage too? if not it could be just the other person's word against his unless theres a witness or CCTV to back up?

QuackQuack_2

foxwales wrote: »

It is a criminal offence to be involved in a Road Traffic Accident and to leave the scene.

Of course it's not, or people would have to remain at the scene all their lives :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
Wordplay to one side, I'm not sure that this extends to private property like a shop car park - only the 'highway' as such.

Yorkie1

OP, aside from any careless driving charge, your nephew has to worry about the twin offences under s.170 RTA 1988.

If damage is caused to another vehicle because of the presence of another vehicle on a road or other public place (so does include a supermarket car park) then the drivers are required to stop and, if required to do so, must provide name / address / vehicle registration number. There is no requirement to leave your details on the windscreen; the duty is to give the details to someone who has good cause to ask for them e.g. the other driver or property owner. A third party witness would not suffice. There is no duty to hang around until someone turns up. It's just a reasonable length of time to enable an appropriate person to ask for the details.

Your nephew will need to consider whether he stopped and waited for long enough. There may be CCTV to show the actual length of time, if any. If he did, then he should be denying the first element of the s.170 offence.

However, if one has not for any reason provided full details to anyone having reasonable grounds to request them, he must report the incident to the police as soon as reasonably practicable and in any event within 24 hours. This does not mean that he has 24 hours if he could have gone to the police station sooner. The report has to be in person, can't do it over the phone.

It appears that he has not reported it to the police and therefore on the face of he is guilty of the second offence under s.170.

The police will decide whether to prosecute him for neither, either or both of the offences.

He should not underestimate the seriousness of the offences. The maximum penalty which the court can impose (although rarely does for a first offence) is 6 months in prison, £5K fine, discretionary disqualification and 5 - 10 penalty points on the licence. If he's held his licence for less than 2 years then 6 points means he automatically loses his licence and has to retake his test anyway.

TrickyWicky

SRH wrote: »

This week someone in the office block I work in tracked me down to tell me her car door had swung open in the wind (mad weather this week!), leaving quite a big dent in my car door - the same one with the scrape. She was so upset and offered immediately to pay for the repairs. There is no paint chipped off and I've now got a decision to make. Do I ask someone, just a couple of weeks before Christmas, to pay out for what was just a genuine accident?

No, you get their insurance details from them and then give them an offer:

1. Let the insurers deal with it
2. Sort it out privately and let them pay after xmas in january with a signed written agreement stating their name, address and policy number and that if they don't pay you will claim from their insurance.

That way you get your car sorted and they get their christmas, everyone is happy.

mutley74 wrote: »

could he not just apologise if questioned and say he did not realise he hit a another car on reversing, and politely offer to see and pay for the damage. But does his car have any damage too? if not it could be just the other person's word against his unless theres a witness or CCTV to back up?

The fact that the police have found him suggest there is either CCTV or a witness. If he's got out of the car and examined the damage and decided to drive off then then what you're basically saying is he should pervert the course of justice which in itself carries jail time.

foxwales wrote: »

It is a criminal offence to be involved in a Road Traffic Accident and to leave the scene.

No, only if there is a personal injury involved. Thats why its pretty standard to ask the people in the other car "Are you alright?". If they answer yes, you exchange details and part company. If there is no-one in the other car then you can leave your details on the screen, or report it to the police within 24 hours. Rule 286 says this must be done as soon as possible and within 24 hours. It does not mention anything about it being done at the police station so if you ring the force you can report it and ask for a incident number.

pendulum

wazza wrote: »

He assumed another one won't make any difference. Looking around he saw no-one and simply drove off.

I hope someone damages his car because "a few extra marks won't make any difference". Once he gets back on the road again after his forced re-test and after he can finally afford insurance that is. The other car likely only had the pre-existing damage it did have because of other idiots like him.

Yorkie1

TrickyWicky wrote: »

No, only if there is a personal injury involved. Thats why its pretty standard to ask the people in the other car "Are you alright?". If they answer yes, you exchange details and part company. If there is no-one in the other car then you can leave your details on the screen, or report it to the police within 24 hours. Rule 286 says this must be done as soon as possible and within 24 hours. It does not mention anything about it being done at the police station so if you ring the force you can report it and ask for a incident number.

I'm sorry Tricky Wicky but you are wrong. Please see my post above.

Section 170 RTA states categorically that there is a duty under s.170(1)(b)(i) and s.170(2) to stop and exchange details if required to do so, as outlined in my post previously if there is damage caused to another vehicle.

If you either fail to stop for long enough, or don't provide details if required to do so, then you have committed a criminal offence - see s.170(4).

There is then a second offence if you fail to report it - see s.170(3) and (4).

This must be to a constable or a police station - see s.170(6). There is case law which states that reporting over the phone is unacceptable. One reason for this is because many people fail to report because they have been drinking. Reporting over the phone would prevent this from being detected, whereas in person raises the prospect of it being detected - and also that's why you must report as soon as reasonably practicable rather than leaving it 24 hours (as we agree).

Yes, there are additional duties imposed under s.170(1)(a) and s.170(5) re. insurance if there is injury to anyone other than the driver of the offending vehicle but damage is sufficient to raise s.170.


170 Duty of driver to stop, report accident and give information or documents.

(1)This section applies in a case where, owing to the presence of a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road or other public place, an accident occurs by which—
(a)personal injury is caused to a person other than the driver of that mechanically propelled vehicle, or
(b)damage is caused—
(i)to a vehicle other than that mechanically propelled vehicle or a trailer drawn by that mechanically propelled vehicle, or
(ii)to an animal other than an animal in or on that mechanically propelled vehicle or a trailer drawn by that mechanically propelled vehicle, or
(iii)to any other property constructed on, fixed to, growing in or otherwise forming part of the land on which the road or place in question is situated or land adjacent to such land.

(2)The driver of the mechanically propelled vehicle must stop and, if required to do so by any person having reasonable grounds for so requiring, give his name and address and also the name and address of the owner and the identification marks of the vehicle.

(3)If for any reason the driver of the mechanically propelled vehicle does not give his name and address under subsection (2) above, he must report the accident.

(4)A person who fails to comply with subsection (2) or (3) above is guilty of an offence.

(5)If, in a case where this section applies by virtue of subsection (1)(a) above, the driver of a motor vehicle does not at the time of the accident produce such a certificate of insurance or security, or other evidence, as is mentioned in section 165(2)(a) of this Act—
(a)to a constable, or
(b)to some person who, having reasonable grounds for so doing, has required him to produce it,
the driver must report the accident and produce such a certificate or other evidence.
This subsection does not apply to the driver of an invalid carriage.

(6)To comply with a duty under this section to report an accident or to produce such a certificate of insurance or security, or other evidence, as is mentioned in section 165(2)(a) of this Act, the driver—
(a)must do so at a police station or to a constable, and
(b)must do so as soon as is reasonably practicable and, in any case, within twenty-four hours of the occurrence of the accident.