SORTED - Supermarket scrape - what will happen next?

Rover_Driver

QuackQuack wrote: »

Can you cite that at all? Can you give a specific case in law where this has been tested and a precedent set?

I know a few years ago my solicitor was not able to do so and a car park prang in my local Asda car park was considered to be 'in a private place' and therefore no offence committed when the other party made off without leaving details or reporting the accident.

Since that point a precedent may have been set or things may have been clarified - I'd be genuinely interested to see where a judge has made a decision on it.

Places that have stated cases that show them to be public places are:

1. A privately-owned Caravan site open to campers (DDP v Vivier [1991] RTR 205)

2. A school playground used outside of school hours as a leisure park by members of the public (Rodger v Normand 1994 SCCR 861)

3. The "Inward Freight Immigration Lanes" at Dover Eastern Docks (DPP v Coulman [1993] RTR 230)

4. A field used in connection with an agricultural show but only while the show is open to the public) (Paterson v Ogilvey 1957 SLT 354)

5. A Multi Storey car park (Bowman v DPP [1991] RTR 263)

I expect there are more...............

The most relevant one to a supermarket car park is DPP v Vivier 1991:

'Public Place under the Road Traffic Act

In order for it to be proven that somewhere is a "Public Place" for the purposes of road traffic offences it must be shown by the prosecution that:

Those people who are admitted to the place in question are members of the public and are admitted as such, not as members of some special or particular class of the public (eg people belonging to an exclusive club) or as a result of some special characteristic that is not shared by the public at large, and;

Those people are so admitted with the permission, express or implied, of the owner of the land in question'.

QuackQuack_2

Rover_Driver wrote: »

Places that have stated cases that show them to be public places are:

1. A privately-owned Caravan site open to campers (DDP v Vivier [1991] RTR 205)

2. A school playground used outside of school hours as a leisure park by members of the public (Rodger v Normand 1994 SCCR 861)

3. The "Inward Freight Immigration Lanes" at Dover Eastern Docks (DPP v Coulman [1993] RTR 230)

4. A field used in connection with an agricultural show but only while the show is open to the public) (Paterson v Ogilvey 1957 SLT 354)

5. A Multi Storey car park (Bowman v DPP [1991] RTR 263)

I expect there are more...............

Your copy and pasting is good - but you neglected the important one at the foot of that article:

Bowman v DPP
House of Lords decision
Save in exceptional circumstances, a car park would not qualify as a "road" for the purposes of section 145(3)(a) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 so as to be an area in respect of which a motor insurance policy had to provide cover.

It's not simple or clear cut and is argued in law time and time again for which it gets very costly.

Rover_Driver

A car park is not 'a road' within the meaning of the Road Traffic Act, it comes under 'other public place'.

DPP v Vivier 1991 gives a good definition of a public place in respect of a supermarket car park.

The_Turner

Quack what you have failed to comprehend is that in the case of the op. The police consider this to be a public place and they are doing something about it.

QuackQuack_2

Rover_Driver wrote: »

A car park is not 'a road' within the meaning of the Road Traffic Act, it comes under 'other public place'.

DPP v Vivier 1991 gives a good definition of a public place in respect of a supermarket car park.

OK, if we take that at face value, perhaps you can help me with this little problem - and I'll use Asda in Eastleigh as an example.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Asda+Eastleigh&hl=en&ll=50.967941,-1.390843&spn=0.004547,0.00928&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=17.413577,38.012695&vpsrc=6&hq=Asda&hnear=Eastleigh,+Hampshire,+United+Kingdom&t=h&z=17

On the end of this building is a tyre and car repair facility that shares the main Asda car park.

Say a customer has their unroadworthy vehicle recovered to this facility and left in the car park until the staff are ready to attend to it. They jump in the vehicle to drive it into their workshop. Are they committing an offence under the RTA for driving that unroadworthy vehicle in their *own* car park - even if it has been deemed as giving public access or as a 'public place'?

If it *is* illegal, would it not be difficult - if not at times impossible - for them to do lawful business if they have any form of car park where defective vehicles may be in situ?

If the Police don't agree on it (or law enforcers) and our Law Lords have mixed views on it (our law makers) and our magistrates are told to 'make their own minds up' no amount of noise on a forum is going to add any weight to it one way or another.

By all means, the next time you are pranged in a supermarket car park, or any other 'public place' where the offender has made off, see how far you can get with the Police taking action to bring the offender to justice. What the law may say -v- what actually happens are two very different things. At the very best it will come down to the DPP/CPS making a decision to prosecute, and I don't fancy your chances much

I seem to recall it is an offence to leave your castle without carrying a sword, but I'm sure that would be ignored and you'd be prosecuted for carrying an offensive weapon if you happened to have one on you.

I seem to recall that in York, it is perfectly legal to shoot a Scotsman with a bow and arrow - except on Sundays.

In law nothing is as it seems, nothing is black and white and legal argument will always prevail.

QuackQuack_2

The_Turner wrote: »

Quack what you have failed to comprehend is that in the case of the op. The police consider this to be a public place and they are doing something about it.

Indeed - I know that. I was saying that in my case the Police took a very different line, and even my family solicitor was unable to get them to shift on it.

Rover_Driver

When was your accident? The words 'or other public place' were added to s.170 RTA 1988 by The Motor Vehicles (Compulsory Insurance Regulations) 2000.
Prior to that s.170 would not necessarily apply in a car park.

Rover_Driver

QuackQuack wrote: »

Say a customer has their unroadworthy vehicle recovered to this facility and left in the car park until the staff are ready to attend to it. They jump in the vehicle to drive it into their workshop. Are they committing an offence under the RTA for driving that unroadworthy vehicle in their *own* car park - even if it has been deemed as giving public access or as a 'public place'?


By all means, the next time you are pranged in a supermarket car park, or any other 'public place' where the offender has made off, see how far you can get with the Police taking action to bring the offender to justice. What the law may say -v- what actually happens are two very different things. At the very best it will come down to the DPP/CPS making a decision to prosecute, and I don't fancy your chances much

In your first scenario, it would depend in what way the vehicle was unroadworthy, some offences can only be committed on 'a road', as a car park is not a road there would not be an offence. If the offence could be committed on 'a road or other public place', it could be an offence.

in your second, just because the Police/CPS do not take any action does not mean that an offence was not committed.

QuackQuack_2

Rover_Driver wrote: »

When was your accident? The words 'or other public place' were added to s.170 RTA 1988 by The Motor Vehicles (Compulsory Insurance Regulations) 2000.
Prior to that s.170 would not necessarily apply in a car park.

Looking at the paperwork that I've just dug out of my attic, 2004. However my solicitor pointed out that we may indeed be 'right', but as the first hour and letter to the police cost £95 - and ongoing time would have been charged at about the same rate, it did not make good economical sense to pursue it for a couple of hundred quids worth of damage. I suspect the Police took the same view and hence the 'private ground' line.

The subject later came up in conversation when my neighbours daughter reversed into a car in a staff car park. The car park WAS defined as a private place as to use it, you were meant to have a permit (hence 'be a member of a club' so to speak). When the aggrieved party complained that she had not stopped, left details or report the matter the Police, once more, told the third party that it was private property, they did not have permission to use it and there was nothing they could do. I suspect in this case, however, it was clear cut.

One of the reasons I sought the other vehicle out and reversed into it in the same car park was to stick two fingers up to the Police and see if they would do anything - which would, of course, have been totally hypocritical. They did not. I don't advocate this as a way of fixing the broken Karma, but I felt much better about it afterwards.

Naturally I hope some common sense, and some effort and continuity now exists within the various police forces when things like this arise.

SingleSue

Many years ago I parked my brand new motorcycle whilst I went into the bank. On my return, my bike was facing a different way with various bits hanging off it and looking a little sorry for itself. It turns out an older female driver had backed into and then over it, got out, snorted and then driven off without leaving any details whatsoever.

Luckily, an elderly gentleman had watched the whole thing and taken her car registration number which allowed me to pursue her for the damages.....unfortunately for her, this required me to go to the police station (this was before internet and checking websites was popular). Her reaction on being called by the police? "Oh, it was only a motorbike", her reaction at being told the young lady (aka me) had been left with quite a large repair bill and she would like them to be paid for? "A girl? A girl! Shouldn't have been on a bike in the first place!"

She was not a happy chicken at being prosecuted by the police...and the police were not happy chickens with her, firstly for her failure to stop and leave details and secondly for her view on motorcycles and females riding them.