MSE News: Orange to raise monthly mobile costs

craigm10

In addition to #832, more of an update thanks to Tom. The CSO hasn't published figures since 1996. But - and this is the good part - the ONS published the final monthly digest of statistics in september! No more have been published since. So even if they try to fob you off by saying the CSO and ONS are the same, neither have published a monthly digest of statistics since september. That must surely make clause 4.3.1 null and void.

You can go to the ONS site and confirm all this as well. It even states it's the final report.

Sorry for any typos first time posting.

oasisscott

one word I'd really like to add but I dont want to offend anybody....BARSTEWARDS is close to it though!!!! I think its crap the way corporate giants do business nowadays....everything looks so attractive on the outside then you find out later down the line that you are so tied up, gagged and restricted by those magical TERMS & CONDITIONS!!!!!! They are always scientifically wrote in the worlds smallest font and if joe public even dare challenge the unfairness to the customer we are subject to the giant rod of correction showering us with correspondence containing such jargon as....."failure to comply with this could result in you having an adverse credit report", or "possible legal proceedings" and the economy as it is nowadays and people finding it hard to be accepted for mortgages or any borrowing, cave in under the pressure of such threats and end up bowing down to the almighty corporate giants.Whatever happened to the REAL one to one customer experience where peoples individual circumstances were taken into consideration?!?!? But this is I suppose progress and the way business is conducted nowadays? So I for one will not even bother contacting Orange to have to wait in a que for 20 minutes after pressing every sigle button on my phone, as prompted by the cyber operator! to query this. I sadly will turn over and let the corporate fat cat sink its teeth deeper into my flesh and into my wallet!!

fairnessfighter

sellers0208 wrote: »

can you help see if my account has the same ufair price increase please as i'm completely useless at figures, money etc....
this is what i'm on - dolphin 40 for 18 months. (this plan doesnt even exist anymore)

your plan and bundles 34.04
extras and discounts -3.40
additional usage and costs 7.88

Total charges for this month excluding VAT

£38.52

VAT at 20.00% on £35.52 7.10

Total charges for this month including VAT £45.62

£3.40 is my loyalty discount of 10%.

thanks for your help!! i'm waiting on my 2nd email back from orange now, and feel that i'm in need of more reasons to cancel!
thanks

This is something else that infuriates me. Orange, like many companies (BT, virgin...), chooses to display its bills and charges in a manner that is almost impossible for its customers to understand. I may be a little cynical but it seems to me a deliberate attempt to deceive.
The problem is I am not totally sure what you are paying. The summary you have included from your bill doesn’t really make sense to me... but that’s just the problem – if people don’t understand the bill how can they keep track of their spending?

eggsarnie

it looks like our argument will now be fought on the basis of what constitutes "material detriment"

well material can be anything really, from clothes to cash to information.

so basically anything .

however detriment is described as -
1. disadvantage or damage; harm; loss
2. a cause of disadvantage or damage

well almost everyone is suffering detriment in my opinion, reg 9.6 does not say a minimum ammount of detriment it says "likely".

to be honest i fail to see how such a case could be lost, but i will fully admit i just work in a warehouse and have NO legal experience at all.

CSX

marko7171 wrote: »

After much surfing around I have come across what may be a way out, thanks to Tom Forth. :T:T:T:T

Orange are justifying refusing cancellations based on two clauses within their Ts&Cs, 4.3 and 15.1. Clause 15.1 is not important to this, it just refers back to 4.3. Clause 4.3 is the important one so let's look at it,

" 4.3 You may also terminate your Contract if we vary its terms, resulting in an excessive increase in the Charges or changes that alter your rights under this Contract to your detriment. In such cases you would need to give us at least 14 days written notice prior to your Billing Date (and within one month of us telling you about the changes). However this option does not apply if:

4.3.1 we have increased the Charges by an amount equal to or less than the percentage increase in the All Items Index of Retail Prices published by the Central Statistical Office in the Monthly Digest of Statistics in any 12 month period; "

According to Clause 4.3, you can cancel your contract without penalty if you don't agree with an increase in your agreed tariff since this is clearly to your detriment. Orange say that clause 4.3.1 lets them raise their tariffs by up to RPI inflation without allowing customers to cancel and that's what they're doing. But there's a problem here. The Central Statistical Office was closed in 1996 and they haven't produced a Monthly Digest of Statistics since then. Yes, The Office for National Statistics took over the role of that office and produces similar statistics but Orange's Ts&Cs don't say "or similar" or "by the successor" in reference to the RPI figures in this clause 4.3.1. Furthermore the Ts&Cs were written well after the Central Statistical Office ceased to exist so it's not a valid defence for Orange to say that they just wrote their Ts&Cs with respect to the legal bodies that existed at the time.

Read Tom's full blog & obtain his letter template at tomforth[dot]co[dot]uk / orange

That's interesting, worth a shot surely?

subaur_swift

i am a sole trader who is just ticking over so can i use that at all as i have my paper work to hand of what i have earned, i do not really want to end my contact 13 months early but they are too sneaky & not right for me anymore.

also i do not want to pay a get out fee at all, so i need some hekp on what to say as there is too much legal stuff for me to think or know about on here.

maybe someone could make us not to got folks on legel stuff a template word doc up ???

cheers

Guys_Dad

With OFCOM saying that they don't think Orange have breached OFCOM's regulations, then it's now a case of thousands of little guys individually taking on Orange and claiming material disadvantage. This is a huge blow to those who want out.

Previous posters have demonstrated that Orange can and in some cases will offer reductions or changes in the contract. What Orange won't do is let people tear up the contract and walk away with no penalty.

You can, of course, try to walk away without penalty, cancel your DD etc. In that case, without any shred of doubt, Orange will report to the credit agencies that you are a defaulter. Your credit record will be marked and this will undoubtedly cause you problems in the future.

Get smart and negotiate with Orange, not on the basis of cancellation, but on the basis of a reduction as others have done and be a winner. Or, put your money where your armchair is and challenge them in court.

Or you can huff and puff and post lots of empty threats or comments on how the world should be rather than it is, slag off capitalism, cling to the hope that Santa will declare Orange's increase clause is invalid because the Stats Office changed its name. That way you lose.

Your choice. :beer:

damageandy

or you could actually read just the last page of this topic and notice that due to an error in oranges terms and condition, material detriment now has nothing to do with getting out of the contract anymore. The stats they specifically state in the contract to allow the price increase do not exist anymore, clause is void.

marko7171

Guys_Dad wrote: »

.......cling to the hope that Santa will declare Orange's increase clause is invalid because the Stats Office changed its name. That way you lose.

Your choice. :beer:

Is not that the Stats Office changed its name, the Central Statistical Office ceased to exist in 1996. Plus, the Monthly Digest of Statistics publication has ceased completely, as of August 2011.

thischris1991

Guys_Dad wrote: »

With OFCOM saying that they don't think Orange have breached OFCOM's regulations, then it's now a case of thousands of little guys individually taking on Orange and claiming material disadvantage. This is a huge blow to those who want out.

Previous posters have demonstrated that Orange can and in some cases will offer reductions or changes in the contract. What Orange won't do is let people tear up the contract and walk away with no penalty.

You can, of course, try to walk away without penalty, cancel your DD etc. In that case, without any shred of doubt, Orange will report to the credit agencies that you are a defaulter. Your credit record will be marked and this will undoubtedly cause you problems in the future.

Get smart and negotiate with Orange, not on the basis of cancellation, but on the basis of a reduction as others have done and be a winner. Or, put your money where your armchair is and challenge them in court.

Or you can huff and puff and post lots of empty threats or comments on how the world should be rather than it is, slag off capitalism, cling to the hope that Santa will declare Orange's increase clause is invalid because the Stats Office changed its name. That way you lose.

Your choice. :beer:

Sums it up in one really. Its now down to people individually to prove to orange that £1.50 or what ever on top of their contract is material detriment. As for this loophole thats been discovered im sure that the legal team will plug it and will say unless you spotted it in your complaint you cant raise it as a complaint or something. Also even if they hadnt updated the terms it would stilll stand surely that the govenment office that produces the statistics regardless of name?? :xmassign: