MSE News: Orange to raise monthly mobile costs

Steve__M_3

Guys_Dad wrote: »

Sorry, Steve, I don't quite get the point you are making. Certainly no one would swap the current situation of a on-off rise of monthly charge below RPI for an annual increase equal to RPI. Or would they? Not me!

You have submitted thousands of comments to a consumer-friendly forum and you don't understand that a more transparent deal is usually cheaper in the long run than a complicated deal with hidden terms and conditions?

As for Orange being quite clear about changing their conditions - as opposed to increasing the monthly bundle charge - I haven't seen that admission.

Clause 4.3 starts "You may also terminate your Contract if we vary its terms,...". Clause 15.1 says "We do, however, reserve the right to vary the terms of this Contract from time to time"

Clause 4.3.1 is only a statement of what they consider is not an "excessive increase". It does not say they are allowed to increase the charges without changing the conditions.

Orange are implying by their use of words that the price increase is somehow just a normal part of business. Personally, I think it is important to argue that it is *not* part of normal business. It's an exceptional attempt to change the ground rules which will make buying of mobile phone contracts in the future more difficult and uncertain.

subaur_swift

well i got this just now =

Please respond to [URL="wlmailhtml:{F28CBAE0-939A-40F6-A790-8456224F29A2}mid://00000208/!x-usc:mailto:executive.office@orange.co.uk"]executive.office@orange.co.uk[/URL]

Dear Mr Swift,

Thank you for your email.

As you probably know, inflation is at a 20 year high, which is having a significant impact on businesses and households alike.

Unfortunately, we've had to re-evaluate our prices and are sorry to say that there will be a 4.34% increase in our monthly plan prices. This is lower than the Retail Price Index measure of inflation, which currently stands at 5.4%. Out of plan charges, such as calls, texts and data will not be changing.

We understand that a price rise is never good news but we'd like to assure you that you'll always get great value and benefits from Orange. For more about this, visit orange.co.uk/more for details.

An alteranative plan for you woud be to change your Service Plan to Panther 35, which is priced at £36.00 per month and already incorporates the price increase. However you would receive a further 250 mb or data and be entitled to 2 swapables, including Sky Sports etc.

If you would like to change this, please advise by return email.


but i am on panther 35 ( web save ) all ready with 600 mins & 750mb data & ult texts plus maps etc.

so what do i do ???

cheers

sellers0208

here you go.....



terminating your Contract because Orange has changed its terms

4.3 You may also terminate your Contract if we vary its terms, resulting in an excessive increase in the Charges or changes that alter your rights under this Contract to your detriment. In such cases you would need to give us at least 14 days written notice prior to your Billing Date (and within one month of us telling you about the changes). However this option does not apply if:
4.3.1 we have increased the Charges by an amount equal to or less than the percentage increase in the All Items Index of Retail Prices published by the Central Statistical Office in the Monthly Digest of Statistics in any 12 month period; or
4.3.2 the variations we have made have been imposed on us as a direct result of new legislation, statutory instrument, government regulation or licence; or
4.3.4 the variation relates solely to an Orange Additional Service, in which case you may cancel that Orange Additional Service in accordance with Condition 15.1.

15.1 (a) When you Register you are asked to choose a Service Plan and to indicate which Orange Additional Services you require. You may switch to a higher Service Plan at any time. You may switch once only to the next lowest Service Plan after one half of your Minimum Term has expired, unless otherwise stated. You may switch to an equivalent Service Plan at any time after one half of your Minimum Term has expired, unless otherwise stated. You must read the rules of your chosen Service Plan as they may restrict your right to change Service Plans during your Minimum Term. In the event you do switch Service Plan and add to or cancel Orange Additional Services you must give us not less than 10 days notice before your Billing Date (subject to the terms of any promotional offers you have accepted). We do, however, reserve the right to vary the terms of this Contract from time to time and to make changes to your Service Plan.
15.1 (b) We acknowledge that if we do increase the Charges, withdraw Orange Additional Services or introduce new mandatory Charges - or if your contractual rights are affected to your detriment - you may terminate your Contract in accordance with Condition 4.3. If you do not give notice within one month of our notifying you of any change(s), you will be taken to have accepted the change(s).

Guys_Dad

Steve__M wrote: »

You have submitted thousands of comments to a consumer-friendly forum and you don't understand that a more transparent deal is usually cheaper in the long run than a complicated deal with hidden terms and conditions?

Since Orange have not (yet) made annual increases to their contracts mid term, then objectionable as it is to many, a one-off for the first time I can remember at less than RPI is financially more advantageous to annual RPI increases on bundle and out of bundle costs



Clause 4.3 starts "You may also terminate your Contract if we vary its terms,...". Clause 15.1 says "We do, however, reserve the right to vary the terms of this Contract from time to time"

Clause 4.3.1 is only a statement of what they consider is not an "excessive increase". It does not say they are allowed to increase the charges without changing the conditions.

4.3.1 is a sub-clause of 4.3 which, for ease of reading, could have been indented or even added to 4.3. However, by cherry-picking, you have conveniently ignored that the whole wording is

You may also terminate your Contract if we vary its terms, resulting in an excessive increase in the Charges or changes that alter your rights under this Contract to your detriment. In such cases you would need to give us at least 14 days written notice prior to your Billing Date (and within one month of us telling you about the changes). However this option does not apply if:...we have increased the Charges by an amount equal to or less than the percentage increase in the All Items Index of Retail Prices published by the Central Statistical Office in the Monthly Digest of Statistics in any 12 month period;


Orange are implying by their use of words that the price increase is somehow just a normal part of business. Personally, I think it is important to argue that it is *not* part of normal business. It's an exceptional attempt to change the ground rules which will make buying of mobile phone contracts in the future more difficult and uncertain.

The different reading of the t&c is precisely why I have complained to OFCOM that they have not acted to remove this sub-clause if, indeed, it is not legal and they should have removed all similar wording from all the network contracts.

grumbler

Steve__M wrote: »

You have submitted thousands of comments to a consumer-friendly forum and you don't understand that a more transparent deal is usually cheaper in the long run than a complicated deal with hidden terms and conditions?

With my thousands I don't understand either and don't see anything hidden.

The only real question I see is if this term is fair/legal/...
IMHO it is fair and legal, and the only problem is the OFCOM's regulation that is not a law, but muddies the water (like many other ambiguous regulations that they produce, but are incapable of enforcing).

ETA: I am on Orange too 12/24.

Guys_Dad

grumbler wrote: »

With my thousands I don't understand either and don't see anything hidden.
.

Glad I am not the only one. :beer:

die0u0die

do want to cancel of stay with orange if u want to cancel call cisas.org.uk
0207 520 3827 and tell them that orange are not going by 9.6 act

sanchopanza15

Just got off the pohone with Orange, before I could say anything they told me about how the increase is legal I didn't want to get out of my contract, but wasn't happy at the increase and the fact that I was told I would get regular usage reviews but had no such thing in 15 months. The guy on the line was happy to review my contract and gave me a reduction, which was fine for me as I wasn't using even half of my allowance. This may be the way to go as I think they would rather keep customers, and my reduction was a million times better than the increase, that said some people may be using up their whole allowance.

ps Are there no mods on this forum? Having a look through the topic, some users have done nothing but berate people who are unhappy about the increase. Guess it makes them happy in their pants or something

Mhadf

Subaur, that looks like a major variation on my first returned one. And more polite. Shame they've forgotten inflation has been as high as 9% in the past 20 years.
What you do is upto you. If you intend to switch to their offer, ask them how long they will guaranteed no further price increases.

If you want to carry on you need to ask why they believe the term is legal under utccr, and ask for cancellation again.

Steve__M_3

Guys_Dad wrote: »

The different reading of the t&c is precisely why I have complained to OFCOM that they have not acted to remove this sub-clause if, indeed, it is not legal and they should have removed all similar wording from all the network contracts.

4.3.1 is a sub-clause of 4.3 which, for ease of reading, could have been indented or even added to 4.3. However, by cherry-picking, you have conveniently ignored that the whole wording is

In what way am I cherry picking? You are saying that it is in their terms and conditions. I am saying it is most certainly a *variation* of their terms and conditions, and their terms and conditions agree with me.

It's an important semantic point even if legally they are entitled to do what they are doing, because it is *not* transparent because one could not predict that they will do it (as we've seen similar terms appear in a lot of these contracts and have done so for years).

Many companies have contracts that give them a one-sided right to change the rules, but almost always the customer has the right to withdraw, and almost always the right is there to deal with unforeseen issues such as changes in legislation and so forth.

It's pretty clear that telecoms are complex businesses such that any small change to a minor part of their service (fair use policy changes etc.) might impact disproportionately on a minority of customers, and I suspect the 4.3.1 clause was written with this in mind.