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2sides2everystory

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

You have completely missed the point of much degree level study and are also misusing the term "self study" if you use it in this way.

No wonder students expect to be spoon fed when even the adults don't understand what it's about!

So now I have an arty-farty graduate with a degree from somewhere in Essex belittling me, a science graduate of the same era with a degree from one of top 3 heavyweights, on the subject of how a typical university education is conducted, principally because I could not easily believe that any degree course left students to their own devices outside of just 12.5 hours a week?

Gaw'd luv us ... and then you became a careers adviser ??

All I can say is perhaps it is no wonder some graduates talk so much of the fun they had at uni. They clearly were arts graduates.

I can take a bit of criticism ONW, but you don't half appear to fancy yourself in this arena.

Lokolo

2sides2everystory wrote: »

So now I have an arty-farty graduate with a degree from somewhere in Essex belittling me, a science graduate of the same era with a degree from one of top 3 heavyweights, on the subject of how a typical university education is conducted, principally because I could not easily believe that any degree course left students to their own devices outside of just 12.5 hours a week?

Gaw'd luv us ... and then you became a careers adviser ??

All I can say is perhaps it is no wonder some graduates talk so much of the fun they had at uni. They clearly were arts graduates.

I can take a bit of criticism ONW, but you don't half appear to fancy yourself in this arena.

You really have a science degree from one of the top 3 heavyweights? Blimey, your posts sure don't come across that way.

Surely not all your lab classes were lessons in which you were taught everything like at school?

Oldernotwiser

2sides2everystory wrote: »

So now I have an arty-farty graduate with a degree from somewhere in Essex belittling me, a science graduate of the same era with a degree from one of top 3 heavyweights, on the subject of how a typical university education is conducted, principally because I could not easily believe that any degree course left students to their own devices outside of just 12.5 hours a week?

Gaw'd luv us ... and then you became a careers adviser ??

All I can say is perhaps it is no wonder some graduates talk so much of the fun they had at uni. They clearly were arts graduates.

I can take a bit of criticism ONW, but you don't half appear to fancy yourself in this arena.

We all know how easy it is for people to reinvent themselves on line and your post proves the point.:rotfl:

Taiko

There's some times when you wish there was a massive acid spill or something. This is one of them.

2sides2everystory

Lokolo wrote: »

You really have a science degree from one of the top 3 heavyweights? Blimey, your posts sure don't come across that way.

Oh dear. Lokolo has also spoken and Taiko is out of the box on this one now. I suppose I am now supposed to go crawl into a corner and pretend I must have dreamed it ?

Sorry, no can do.

Surely not all your lab classes were lessons in which you were taught everything like at school?

Have I at any stage suggested that they were like that ? I don't think so. But the lab time was heavily scheduled IIRC, so it would not have mixed well with a zero hours retail shift that I only learned about 18 hours in advance for example.

Let's put all this back in context shall we ? arsenalbarnie was extolling the virtues of son doing a degree who did 12.5 hours for a supermarket each week. arsenalbarnie commented that was more hours than he seemed to be doing at the university in lectures at the like.

I agreed that a 12.5 hours a week job especially with most of it on a Sunday and take home pay of £450 a month sounded pretty complimentary to doing a uni course, but I did express surprise that his course only required 12.5 hours a week attendance to set pieces like lectures and tutorials.

Then assorted others jumped in and decided I needed a lecture on how to study at university because it isn't like school, you know, it's all about self study.

So yes actually I am fully aware of that to the extent that because I went to a top university and although I wasn't the brightest by far, I have been there, done that, did get awarded a science degree once upon a time and even got given a special t-shirt. But in term time (yes we hadn't even heard of Americanisms like 'semesters'), I am damned sure spent a hell of a lot more time in lectures and tutorials and labs than 12.5 hours a week.

Now ONW and Lokolo find the revelation incredible for some reason and Taiko wants an acid spill.

For Lokolo's benefit, because he's of a different era to ONW and me, and because I have formed the impression he's also a science graduate, I'd just like to say that whilst the uni I went to was Top 3 in the 70s when only a small fraction of us apparently went to university, it might not be necessarily be seen as Top 3 now. I will also happily admit that apart from applying it to certain leisure activities, encouraging a love of maths and science in my kids and using a bit of maths and computing in the office to good effect, I have never practiced the discipline of my degree in my career. Pretty sad eh? Well not really, because as I said, I wasn't the brightest by far so pretty soon after I graduated I thought I'd better step out of their way before I got run down by some highly energised particle - I went into financial services instead - not as a rocket scientist but as a salesman with a thirst for knowledge and integrity built in. As you can imagine, that gave me a limited shelf life in that business :rotfl:

Would I do it all again? Don't be daft - I'd try something else next time

So, here I am then - about same age as ONW I guess, ONW like ONW I guess, one foot in the good old days like ONW I guess but from there on in, all similarities clearly are at an end

Lokolo

OK to make it clear I did spend more than the required hours in the "labs", but these weren't taught but instead sitting in the dull library reading books where I wanted to find the author and shoot them.

I didn't do a science degree but I always got the impression that lab work wasn't with a tutor and was done independantly?

2sides2everystory

In my day in my college at least, lab work in the first and second years was semi-organised working in small teams, with supervising tutors not far away. I understand from attending three recent open days that that kind of working is very much how engineering students are expected to work in the present day. The teamwork aspect is emphasised. Graduate engineers will have learned no only how to be excellent problem-solvers, but they will also be good team-workers (or that's the received wisdom on it).

In my final year I worked alone in the lab apart from a helping hand from a technician and again a tutor and a professor not too far away, but for me, as my work and data collected was essential to the progress of a bigger project, time was of the essence.

I know what you mean about wanting to find the author of a certain book and shoot him, Lokolo Even now, 35 years later, there is one very expensive book buried in my attic that remains much like an impossible Rubik's Cube to me

melancholly

2sides2everystory wrote: »

a science graduate of the same era with a degree from one of top 3 heavyweights,

is that meant to be me?!

and the point about your posting style was meant genuinely. in forums i, and many others, find really long posts hard to read and the style makes a difference to what you take in. i find concise points easier to digest and they therefore impact on me more than ones that are essay-length and florid...... it's meant to be constructive..... i think debate on this is important and i've certainly shifted my opinion on various aspects of HE financing based on posts on here. i really find it hard to read your posts all the way through. but as i expected, you have taken the comments in the worst way possible.

2sides2everystory

Melancholly, this isn't about you. I am that science graduate. I am sure that was buried in my post somewhere

I hear what you say about finding it hard to read my posts but maybe I am just not one of your favorite authors. That's ok. Of course I could improve the readability if I were aiming for a Booker, but I frequently have a lot to say and not much time to refine it. Clearly what I manage to get across does resonate with a fair number of MSE'ers, so I am not overly concerned with risk of failure when I post here.

I am not here for the to and fro of debate. I am here to influence opinion and move minds. I do also have a sense of humour and try to leave a few nuggets of entertainment in some of my offerings, even to the point of self-effacement. If a few minds topple or give up then that's collateral. You may even call me a comedian if you wish (not much of one I know).

The_One_Who

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Of course it isn't school but it isn't a mere 12.5 hours of interaction with the people who are imparting knowledge and where and how to get it either.

Students are given a library card and a password that will allow them almost unlimited access to any online journal that their university subscribes to. That library card can also access books from the British Library. So that covers the 'where' to get the knowledge.

As for the how, students should already have some concept of critical reading, but a lot of universities run classes in this and the theme should be coming across within the taught components.

Lecturers also usually have "office hours" which are woefully underused, and in many cases not used at all. These are a few hours a week where the lecturer (or the tutor) sets their work aside to sit in their office and talk to students about any queries they may have. Most will also arrange an appointment if necessary, or try to answer questions via email.

What on earth costs £9,000pa/12.5hrs for 25 weeks i.e. the best part of £30 an hour when some of the lecture sizes are over 100 students ?? Someone is having a laugh, right?

An annual subscription to just one online journal (so not including the paper version) costs several hundred pounds. There are thousands of journals out there needed by students. Academic books aren't cheap. And let's not forget about the costs of actually running a library in terms of staff costs, maintenance, utility bills, etc.

And what about student services, things like help centres, admin staff, IT, careers services, etc.

Those fees also help to subsidise the student life, with clubs and societies often receiving financial help from the university. Never mind the costs of the gym.