Tuition fees 2012 on - Buy 4 Get 1 free ...

2sides2everystory

TOW wrote:

How does your argument that the costs of university are prohibitive explain that Scottish student applications to Scottish universities (where there are no fees) are down by over 10%? I think it's fairly obvious why Scottish applications to universities down south are down by over 15%.

I think it's maybe closer to say that there is something more going on here than just fees. Are people looking to other options? Maybe thinking that university may not be the best option for them right now/ever? It can't just be the fees, although of course that will no doubt play a part in it.

I don't disagree with this. I don't own the argument that costs are prohibitive. It is merely an assertion based on self evident observation. Essentially fewer of those who decide each year appear to have concluded that on some cost-benefit analysis the cost of going can be justified.

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

Students studying practical subjects and sciences may have more contact time but 12.5 hours is probably more hours than many humanities and social science students have to attend. University is mainly about independent study rather than being taught in a classroom.

I think you do the university cause a massive disservice suggesting that university is about self-study. University is not about self-study courses otherwise they would spend much more on building student accommodation that was less like hamster cages and spend much less on lecture theatres labs and tutorial rooms.

Learndirect and Open University are about self-study. You can sit at home and get qualifications from them.

The_One_Who

2sides2everystory wrote: »

I think you do the university cause a massive disservice suggesting that university is about self-study. University is not about self-study courses otherwise they would spend much more on building student accommodation that was less like hamster cages and spend much less on lecture theatres labs and tutorial rooms.

Learndirect and Open University are about self-study. You can sit at home and get qualifications from them.

The university lectures and tutorials are to be supplemented by individual study. Something like for every one hour of teaching students should be doing about four hours of individual learning. University isn't school.

melancholly

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Watch your language please melancholly

You have no right to brandish words like "rant" purely because you are the sort who prefers to go quietly with the prevailing wind merely leaving a little marker that says "Pardon me but I would just like to remind people that I did say I was against it at the time but we moved on".

Words like troll, aggressive, rude, rant are used quite wrongly by the few who believe they are God's gift as offensive codewords designed to ostracise. I am sure not you, Martin or the judge fall into that category, eh? At best those types of words are used by people who go with the prevailing wind without too much thought for why they are using the word, and at worst they are used to deliberately exaggerate offence taken. It is all pretty puerile.

PS This is not a rant

that post may not be a rant, but it's not the most coherent arguement used in this issue by quite some distance. personally, i find your posts very long and written in a tone that makes it hard to read. there are many tangents (Arthur C Clarke?!) that aren't directly relevant which makes the point get lost. but if you want to take that as an insult to you personally and say i'm trying to stifle your position, i can't stop that. i do however, strongly believe that your point is not helped by the way that you make it.

(and just to clarify it's not about whether or not you personally objected to the changes in December - there was much middle class tutting in the media about students protesting over nothing, and now they're up in arms over the financial implications. it's frustrating as if people in general had woken up to this situation and lobbied a year ago, we might have had a different outcome. not everything is all about you!).

melancholly

2sides2everystory wrote: »

I think you do the university cause a massive disservice suggesting that university is about self-study. University is not about self-study courses otherwise they would spend much more on building student accommodation that was less like hamster cages and spend much less on lecture theatres labs and tutorial rooms.

Learndirect and Open University are about self-study. You can sit at home and get qualifications from them.

you used to 'read for a degree' - with guidance and mostly self study. perhaps now degrees are just like school but it certainly isn't what they were set up to be like. that's why there is so much money spent on computing clusters and library facilities. uni most definitely should be about independent learning and the fact that it isn't considered to be such is a damning indication of what it has become over the last few decades.

(and most student accommodation is built by private companies these days - very little is spent by unis versus companies like Unite).

2sides2everystory

The_One_Who wrote: »

The university lectures and tutorials are to be supplemented by individual study. Something like for every one hour of teaching students should be doing about four hours of individual learning. University isn't school.

Of course it isn't school but it isn't a mere 12.5 hours of interaction with the people who are imparting knowledge and where and how to get it either. I wish I had my calendar handy from the seventies - I can't imagine that I was only attending lectures and labs and tutorials for only 12.5 hours a week. Maybe if this is how it is thesedays, it is one of the real reasons why young people are seeing through it. What on earth costs £9,000pa/12.5hrs for 25 weeks i.e. the best part of £30 an hour when some of the lecture sizes are over 100 students ?? Someone is having a laugh, right?

And melancholly, I despair at your assumed position here making judgments on the quality of my posts like you were some esteemed PPE tutor. You are not, are you ? :rotfl:

Lokolo

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Of course it isn't school but it isn't a mere 12.5 hours of interaction with the people who are imparting knowledge and where and how to get it either. I wish I had my calendar handy from the seventies - I can't imagine that I was only attending lectures and labs and tutorials for only 12.5 hours a week. Maybe if this is how it is thesedays, it is one of the real reasons why young people are seeing through it. What on earth costs £9,000pa/12.5hrs for 25 weeks i.e. the best part of £30 an hour when some of the lecture sizes are over 100 students ?? Someone is having a laugh, right?

When I was at university I got;

- Access to tutors outside of my teaching time
- Development kits (which cost a lot!)
- Top of the range PCs (again, cost a lot!)
- Decent lecture rooms and some classrooms
- 24/7 library
- Careers services
- Admin services (student cards, car park etc.)

Although I personally didn't need it

- Disability help
- Financial help

First year I had around 22 hours of face time, second year was around 18 hours. Final year was 10 hours (my final semester was 6 hours!). Final year was low because project work doesn't need facetime, maybe 1/2 hours a week with tutor.

My lectures and classes ranged from around 80 people to as low as 8 depending on the module being studied. Although the 80 people was only in first year as a lot of people were doing generic modules across subject areas (so Computing and Maths was done by all Computing students, not just Comp Sci for example).

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My university is also having its charging structure based on costs. So those that just use classrooms will cost less than those that use labs which in turn cost less than leading technology courses.

wintersunshine

The_One_Who wrote: »

I think it's maybe closer to say that there is something more going on here than just fees. Are people looking to other options? Maybe thinking that university may not be the best option for them right now/ever? It can't just be the fees, although of course that will no doubt play a part in it.

UK Art Colleges Suffer 27% Drop in Applicants

1/3 of the graduates in the creative industries are still seeking jobs three years after graduation

There has been a significant fall, amounting to 27.1 per cent in submissions to creative arts and design university courses. According to the latest October figures published by UCAS applicants for courses commencing September 2012 are below average.This massive drop has been attributed to the introduction of fees from next year. Some art courses have already made it clear that they will be charging the maximum of £9000. This latest statistic is overwhelming compared to a 7.9 per cent decline in applications across all courses. The Universities and Colleges Admissions Service has been unable to account for the discrepancy. Creative arts and design courses have now seen one of the biggest drops among the subject groups surveyed. The only slower-growth area was mass communications and documentation (down 40.6 per cent) and education (down 30.4 per cent).

A little less than ten years ago a similar Autumn survey showed a growth of 25% in the same period but it is evident that with a third of the graduates in the creative industries still seeking jobs, three years after graduation, it will be an uphill climb to get young people to engage with arts subjects.

http://www.artlyst.com/articles/uk-art-colleges-suffer-27-drop-in-applicants

Oldernotwiser

2sides2everystory wrote: »

I think you do the university cause a massive disservice suggesting that university is about self-study. University is not about self-study courses otherwise they would spend much more on building student accommodation that was less like hamster cages and spend much less on lecture theatres labs and tutorial rooms.

Learndirect and Open University are about self-study. You can sit at home and get qualifications from them.

You have completely missed the point of much degree level study and are also misusing the term "self study" if you use it in this way.

No wonder students expect to be spoon fed when even the adults don't understand what it's about!

Oldernotwiser

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Of course it isn't school but it isn't a mere 12.5 hours of interaction with the people who are imparting knowledge and where and how to get it either. I wish I had my calendar handy from the seventies - I can't imagine that I was only attending lectures and labs and tutorials for only 12.5 hours a week.

I was at university from 1975 until 1979 and one year I had 2 hours of compulsory seminars. I remember perfectly well because I lived in Wales for some time and travelled up to Essex one day a week for them.

Obviously science students who had laboratory time had more hours.

Lokolo

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

I was at university from 1975 until 1979 and one year I had 2 hours of compulsory seminars. I remember perfectly well because I lived in Wales for some time and travelled up to Essex one day a week for them.

You poor soul. (in jest!)