Christening....which religion.....

erichamster

Torry_Quine wrote: »

It doesn't say that it often takes an excuse like religion, it says 'for good people to do evil things, it takes religion' implying that without religion good people won't do bad things. All off us do bad things and use all kind of reasons, yes religion included, to justify them.

Well this point depends on your definition of a 'good person' you can say that we all do bad things, but obviously we are not all bad people. However we are not all good people either. I suppose I could argue that Steven Weinberg's quote still stands as the good people are no longer good at least when (and perhaps also after) they are doing a bad thing.

Religion can certainly make otherwise moral people do things that most of us would find morally repugnant, indeed the old testament for example contains many instances of god himself doing or inciting completely morally repugnant deeds.

EchoLocation

Torry_Quine wrote: »

I suspect we may disagree as to what is on occassion is ethical!

I don't think we'd be too far away!

Torry_Quine wrote: »

I can also agree that wicked statements can be made and actions performed by the religious and justified. However where I would probably disagree that the faith is the real cause but the individual's interpretation of it.

But the point is that would they have done it were it not for their faith, so doesn't that point to a flaw in the religion? What if someone were to commit one of the many disgusting acts that god commanded? Where's the interpretation issue there?

Torry_Quine

erichamster wrote: »

Well this point depends on your definition of a 'good person' you can say that we all do bad things, but obviously we are not all bad people. However we are not all good people either. I suppose I could argue that Steven Weinberg's quote still stands as the good people are no longer good at least when (and perhaps also after) they are doing a bad thing.

Religion can certainly make otherwise moral people do things that most of us would find morally repugnant, indeed the old testament for example contains many instances of god himself doing or inciting completely morally repugnant deeds.

I do agree that we can all do bad things and aren't all bad people.

Yes, sadly some people use their religion as an excuse to do things which most of us would totally disagree with.

erichamster

Torry_Quine wrote: »

I agree that ethical statements can just as easily be made by a non-believer although I suspect we may disagree as to what is on occassion is ethical! I can also agree that wicked statements can be made and actions performed by the religious and justified. However where I would probably disagree that the faith is the real cause but the individual's interpretation of it.

That's the thing, on a base level at least, almost all people (not psychopaths) share a similar level of morality. It has even been shown that apes display moral behaviour, the higher status apes will often be the most 'moral' having earned their status through being good at protecting weaker members of the group and resolving disputes. Morality is on an evolutionary level, useful, no logical being really wants to live in a world where murder and abuse of the weak is morally acceptable, that wouldn't be a nice environment for anyone, thus we have evolved empathy and a sense of conscience and fairness. Morality does not come from religion.

erichamster

Torry_Quine wrote: »

I do agree that we can all do bad things and aren't all bad people.

Yes, sadly some people use their religion as an excuse to do things which most of us would totally disagree with.

Exactly, therefore the logical question to ask is what use is religion? I would argue that it benefits none and is a detriment to many.

Torry_Quine

EchoLocation wrote: »

I don't think we'd be too far away!



But the point is that would they have done it were it not for their faith, so doesn't that point to a flaw in the religion? What if someone were to commit one of the many disgusting acts that god commanded? Where's the interpretation issue there?

I hope so too!

It doesn't necessarily point to a flaw in their religion if for instance they think that killing someone 'different' to them is commanded, more that they don't understand God. OT times were horrific in many ways and I honestly can find it hard to reconcile at times but I accept that God was very harsh at times to His opponents.

Torry_Quine

erichamster wrote: »

That's the thing, on a base level at least, almost all people (not psychopaths) share a similar level of morality. Morality is useful, no logical being really wants to live in a world where murder and abuse of the weak is morally acceptable, that wouldn't be a nice environment for anyone, thus we have empathy and a sense of conscience and fairness. Morality does not come from religion.

This is where we seperate, while agreeing all of us have a capacity to be moral beings, I would say that it comes ultimately from God.

erichamster wrote: »

Exactly, therefore the logical question to ask is what use is religion? I would argue that it benefits none and is a detriment to many.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I can only say that my relationship with God is the most important one in my life and is beneficial in many ways.

System

ebayqueen wrote: »

Crazy guy

With respect ..... stop insulting JESUS....your post above is more than insulting. It is sinful. Why is it that its thought to be ok to make crude and disgusting offensive statements .... when directed at Christians.

Try and insult Islam and see what response you get.

I am reporting the above links......would others please do the same.

OP

Congratulations on your forthcoming baby. You question so much and deep down you know you are searching for something. I believe in the Communion of Saints and your grandmother is one of them. She in her way is guiding you to search for God. She found him and is happy.

Go with what you really feel would suit you and your husband.

Saying that being the good Catholic that I am get the child christened :):)

There']s nothing wrong with being a Pastafarian :mad:

Torry_Quine

whatelse wrote: »

Needlessly, and such discrimination seen in the OT has trickled down to some followers of Christianity today. The problem is "personal responsabillity" and using "God" as an excuse or a motivation to commit terrible acts or have terrible opinions. Even something as simple as those who vilify women and men for having a child without being married first.

Couldn't agree more. We are all personally responsible for what we say and do. Although i think it's preferable to be married before having a child I would never castigate anyone who isn't.

EchoLocation

Torry_Quine wrote: »

It doesn't necessarily point to a flaw in their religion if for instance they think that killing someone 'different' to them is commanded, more that they don't understand God. OT times were horrific in many ways and I honestly can find it hard to reconcile at times but I accept that God was very harsh at times to His opponents.

I would hope that we both agree that new born babies were not Gods 'opponents'.

The question was "Can anyone think of a wicked statement made, or an evil action performed, precisely because of religious faith?" Can you honestly deny that someone exactly carrying out something that God commanded, was not doing so precisely because of their religious faith?

Torry_Quine wrote: »

This is where we seperate, while agreeing all of us have a capacity to be moral beings, I would say that it comes ultimately from God.

We clearly get morals from evolution. Morals are simply rules and constructs that came about by our societal living. Animals show signs of morality and altruism, did they get them from God, or is it simply beneficial for their evolution and propogation to retain this behaviour?