General discussion for (Tottenham) riots

StevieJ

StevieJ wrote: »

There too many so they were going for quality arrests i.e. adults.

There will also a few morning visits, and it won't be delivering the milk :)Manchester police can be quite mean

"The looters who are attacking our city are feral. Those involved who think it is amusing should cast their minds back to the police operation following the UEFA Cup riots.
"We tracked down each one. They got a 6am call from the police and many were sent to prison."

pqrdef

SingleSue wrote: »

As I have said before, they are just excuses not reasons

It's not about excuses, it's about understanding the nature of the problem. But our politicians of all parties seem hell-bent on remaining in denial about the country's social problems, which means we're only storing up more trouble for later on. Those who aren't being listened to will force themselves on our attention sooner or later, and if the only power they have is the power to destroy, that's what they'll use.

Sirdan

adouglasmhor wrote: »

Just to let people know - telescopic batons are illegal for civvy use, manufacture, import and possession in the UK - don't do it there are plenty of legal alternatives that won't see you with a record. (Until you clout someone you shouldn't have).

Actually all batons are illegal :

"The list of weapons regarded as offensive for the purposes of the act includes "straight, side-handled or friction-lock truncheons (sometimes known as a batons)" in the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) (Amendment) Order 2004"

and

""telescopic truncheons" in the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988"

Mr_Mumble

vivatifosi wrote: »

Mmmm... May need to rethink this "it's a bunch of disenfranchised kids" thing. Chief Constable of Manchester reporting that most of those arrested were adults (a few juveniles), the oldest of whom is 58. Blooming baby boomers, they are to blame for everything I tell you!

The image of wildebeest being chased by lions on the Serengeti comes to mind. If you have a group of 20-30 looting a shop and a few coppers come around the corner the kids will flee double quick while the opportunist older folk - people who probably do have real problems such as mental illness or drug abuse - are going to get caught.

adouglasmhor

Sirdan wrote: »

Actually all batons are illegal :

"The list of weapons regarded as offensive for the purposes of the act includes "straight, side-handled or friction-lock truncheons (sometimes known as a batons)" in the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) (Amendment) Order 2004"

and

""telescopic truncheons" in the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988"

That's if in a public place, telescopic batons are illegal even in your own house and to buy, make, manufacture or sell except to legal dealers and police forces.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/downloadFile?contentID=HMCE_PROD1_025807

adouglasmhor

141
Offensive weapons.
1)Any person who manufactures, sells or hires or offers for sale or hire, exposes or has in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire, or lends or gives to any other person, a weapon to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence and liable .

ladidadadeda

Sirdan

adouglasmhor wrote: »

That's if in a public place, telescopic batons are illegal even in your own house and to buy, make, manufacture or sell except to legal dealers and police forces.

So which law prohibits simple possession of the telscopic baton in your home ..not CJA 88 S141 it seems ???

vivatifosi

pqrdef wrote: »

Breeding a class of criminals so we can then pay whatever it costs to keep them policed or locked up doesn't seem like the best idea really.

If all of the looters were from an underclass of teenagers I might buy that, however that's not the story being told by the court sheets. You've got college students, drug dealers, Eastern European immigrants who haven't been here long enough to have become disenfranchised, 58 year old men, all types. Frankly if they've f*cked up their life chances by rioting they've got nobody to blame but themselves. I do think there are very real issues with Broadwater Farm, but beyond that there is a great deal of opportunists jumping on what they think will be a lucrative, fun and edgy bandwagon.

iB1

I've held off posting my thoughts for a few days, as I was so angry about the rioting that I don't think that I could have delivered a calm response. I was born and brought up in Croydon, and then spent 4 years at uni in Birmingham, so seeing these places on the news getting smashed up brought up a lot of anger and emotion in me.

Unfortunately, there are several problems here, and I have no idea what the solution is...

1) The relationship between the police and the poor sink estates has never been great. It was better than it was in the 80s but you still feel that an isolated incident could break the camel's back and cause riots, which is what has happened. The police have changed their style over the years to their credit - less racism, less heavy-handedness and more community support. But there is still unease there.

2) We have a generation of youngsters who have been brought up thinking that they are invincible. Their parents can't/won't discipline them, the teachers can't discipline them, the next door neighbour can't... you get the picture. So when someone comes along and says "Oi you can't do that" - the reaction is often hostility.

3) Some of these estates are horrible places to be. Simply horrible. Lots of people who won't get jobs, lots of people who can't get jobs, single mothers with useless/absent fathers, police turning up and carting people off on a regular basis, "gangsters" and general scum. If you're born into something like that, it's all too easy to get consumed by the negativity around you.. If you screw up and get a criminal record, no-one is gonna touch you with a barge pole and the cycle continues.

4) What can we do? Building a big wall and throwing away the key isn't the solution - and neither is just throwing lots of money at these estates. But I just don't know what a happy medium is. The word "respect" gets thrown around a lot - and it's easy to say. But what does it entail from both sides of the coin?

I'm slightly worried that if the police feel too impotent to deal with the arson and looting then we will get some serious tit-for-tat violence going on. If the Turkish men who protected their shops actually caught and beat/killed some black teenagers, we'd get some serious race riots on our hands. The general public seem to be angry with the police for not doing enough, while those who are rioting are angry about the police sticking their noses in, in the first place. I'm not sure where the happy medium is.

lostinrates

vivatifosi wrote: »

If all of the looters were from an underclass of teenagers I might buy that, however that's not the story being told by the court sheets. You've got college students, drug dealers, Eastern European immigrants who haven't been here long enough to have become disenfranchised, 58 year old men, all types. Frankly if they've f*cked up their life chances by rioting they've got nobody to blame but themselves. I do think there are very real issues with Broadwater Farm, but beyond that there is a great deal of opportunists jumping on what they think will be a lucrative, fun and edgy bandwagon.

Yes, I think that's fair.


fwiw, there ARE opportunities, even after conviction for ''these'' other, ''underclass'' of people. I've seen young men (mainly young men) given opportunities as part of their conviction. I don't know how good those opportunities are, the calibre of the training. I'm prepared to consider its not great: because the same young men came back again through the system. In which case the answer STILL is to strip something that's not working out of the system and to engage as a society with what alternatives we have.

Its not someone else's problem, as we now are finding out if we didn't know. But I still feel the argument is HOW we solve the problem. I do not think its been bettered in recent years. In fact, I do wonder if it hasn't been fuelled...although not intentionally.

edit: one system that did seem to have won the heart and rather weak mind of a client was that of the Jamie Oliver kitchen. OK, client reconvicted, but I'm prepared to believe there was some naivity involved. In anycase, the disappointment he'd caused his bosses was VDERY evident. I don't know what happened to him. I hope it was good.