Nice people thread part 4 - sugar and spice and all things

LydiaJ

michaels wrote: »

My comprehensive (former secondary modern) streamed and setted so the brighter could be stretched but weren't treated as a class apart never seeing their peers who were not so academically focussed and all came together for PE, technical subjects and home economics etc. And no one had that precosiousness / I am better than other people sense that some seem to think is the 'benefit' of a private edcuation.

I've been through the private school system myself and I've taught in 4 different private schools, and I honestly don't think they do think they're better than everyone else. Really truly they don't. Well, there may be a few that think that because of their upbringing - schools can't correct all the errors of the parents - but they genuinely don't think it because of their schools.

It's true that they do gain confidence. Someone referred to it as an ability to talk to adults as equals, and that's part of it. They learn to behave well - good manners etc - which gives them the security of knowing that they know what to do and how to behave. More than that, a private education at its best can give young people an almost unbounded "I can do whatever I set my mind to" atttitude. But it's not comparative. There's no element of "I can do anything and other people can't." It's more "Anything's possible. I'm going for it; who's coming with me?"

Some of them tend to be rather sheltered and somewhat naive about how the other half live. Quite a lot of them are at least vaguely aware that other people have it harder than they do, and are grateful for being given opportunities that not everyone gets. But in all my career I've never met one who actually thought that privately educated kids are intrinsically better or more valuable than those in state schools.

It's true that in my 15 years of teaching, I did once come across a girl who thought that parents who didn't manage to get their kids into a private or grammar school were bad parents - although she assigned no blame to the kids themselves. And she was immediately howled down by the whole of the rest of the class for expressing such ideas, and they then argued hotly that she had no idea what she was talking about, many of them quoting examples drawn from the experiences of their friends at state schools. And that was at a boarding school for the mega-rich. Ordinary independent day-schools are full of ordinary middle-class kids, rather like comprehensives that happen to be in affluent areas.

In fact the "I'm glad I had the chance to be educated here because I'm aware not everyone gets the same opportunities" attitude that I've seen in kids at independent schools is exactly the same as I've heard from kids at oversubscribed "good" comprehensives.

vivatifosi

Honestly, if I had kids now, I'm not sure what I would do. I would probably want to go down the state route, but that would depend a lot on the quality of the school that my kids would go to. Now that my brother has moved, his kids are in the catchment area for the best school in his town and in his shoes I'd probably send them there. Somewhere else, I don't know.

Looking in on this debate as someone without children, I don't know that opinions are really that far apart. Everyone here wants the best education for their kids, its just about how you go about getting it. None of the NPs seem to be of the opinion "oh well, the local comp will do, I'll just send them there" it's something everyone seems to be in a real quandry about.

I was talking to a local teacher on a sink estate a couple of weeks ago. She was saying that schools are now really good at getting kids with English as a second language on board and getting them applying hard. The problem now is with white kids from poor families who just aren't motivated to apply themselves. I'd say that the problem kids that I meet fall into this category too. I just don't understand where their drive has gone in the 30 years since I went to the same school. It's bizarre. I said before, the kids I'd see revising hard were the ones wearing the hijab or the black kids with African parents, or the kids who'd break off and speak in Polish. I don't know how you reverse that but I do know something needs to be done.

Davesnave

There were no grammar schools in Bath, but plenty of private schools, which were not an option for us. As a person who worked in the State system out of choice, I didn't find that a hardship.

While there were no out & out 'bad' comprehensives in the city, we did suffer some anxiety obtaining a place in the only mixed school our DD1 would consider. She refused point blank to put other choices on the form, although if push had come to shove, there was a comp in Keynsham she'd probably have settled for.

I remember at the appeal interview, some bespectacled old chap asking DD what she would do if there were no places available in the autumn, and she replied "Wait."

He frowned, saying something like, "But you'd be on your own and all your friends would be in new schools."

She just shrugged and said that sometimes you have to be patient and wait for things, especially if they're good.

The truth was that she was fairly ambivalent towards school and certainly not worried about being 'odd.' Choosing that school, which was out of catchment, made her a bit peculiar anyway! :rotfl:

It was lucky DD1 achieved a place, because DD2 then had automatic right of entry to the school. Unlike DD1, who was just being headstrong, DD2 really benefited from the environment there, which clicked with her personality and helped her to overcome her disabilities.

To be honest, I think DD1 would have achieved much the same academically wherever she'd gone, but from a very early age she'd maintained that it 'wasn't right' for boys and girls to be segregated. From the age of 4, she travelled with me to many of the local secondary schools, usually after lesson time, and so she had a behind the scenes peek that most kids don't have. Maybe that made a difference.

SingleSue

PasturesNew wrote: »

Do you all live in areas that still have grammar schools? Where I grew up they were abolished in about 1973-74... it's weird when you guys mention grammar schools.

None near here either......we have normal state schools and fee paying ones.

SingleSue

michaels wrote: »

My comprehensive (former secondary modern) streamed and setted so the brighter could be stretched but weren't treated as a class apart never seeing their peers who were not so academically focussed and all came together for PE, technical subjects and home economics etc. And no one had that precosiousness / I am better than other people sense that some seem to think is the 'benefit' of a private edcuation.

My comprehensive (formally the Grammar school) had streaming in the same way...I was top sets in the first year but was moved down to the middle sets for second year. Loved it in middle, I didn't have to think, would finish all my work within 10 minutes of the lesson starting and could then dream about John Taylor (Duran Duran) for the rest of it.

They realised their mistake pretty quickly though and moved me back up before the start of 3rd year.....begger, no more dreaming for me.

The two younger boys go to the same school I went to and James, although he went to what used to be the secondary modern for his education upto and including GCSEs, now has more of his courses at my old school.

SingleSue

vivatifosi wrote: »

Honestly, if I had kids now, I'm not sure what I would do. I would probably want to go down the state route, but that would depend a lot on the quality of the school that my kids would go to. Now that my brother has moved, his kids are in the catchment area for the best school in his town and in his shoes I'd probably send them there. Somewhere else, I don't know.

Looking in on this debate as someone without children, I don't know that opinions are really that far apart. Everyone here wants the best education for their kids, its just about how you go about getting it. None of the NPs seem to be of the opinion "oh well, the local comp will do, I'll just send them there" it's something everyone seems to be in a real quandry about.

I was talking to a local teacher on a sink estate a couple of weeks ago. She was saying that schools are now really good at getting kids with English as a second language on board and getting them applying hard. The problem now is with white kids from poor families who just aren't motivated to apply themselves. I'd say that the problem kids that I meet fall into this category too. I just don't understand where their drive has gone in the 30 years since I went to the same school. It's bizarre. I said before, the kids I'd see revising hard were the ones wearing the hijab or the black kids with African parents, or the kids who'd break off and speak in Polish. I don't know how you reverse that but I do know something needs to be done.

I must admit I find it frustrating to hear parents and children being anti education, one of the reasons I took a slight dislike to one of James' girlfriends was because of the way she talked about her disrespect of teachers and her education. I was all the more annoyed because she had had the chance to go to a decent Catholic school where the education is amongst the best in the county.

So although my current status is as one of the 'poor' people, my views are the same as most middle class parents....and consequently, the boy's views are the same. It confuses the life out of some people, a parent on benefits with active support of education and with children who also support education who also then convert that into good results....it completely beggers up the stereotypical views of some!

lostinrates

michaels wrote: »

I think you and I and singlesue and Viva should have our own not posh not public school np thread

that's interesting...for someone who doesn't like the social division of private education!

lostinrates

all my critters apart from two chooks and the horses are grumpy. The hunt is coming past at somepoint today, so tried to keep the birds in (two slipped out) and have had to lock the horses out and take their clothes off. Typically its peeing down, the grass where the horses are will be trashed and I'll have to keep them in for a couple of hours tonight (which will make them grumpy) in order to get them dry enough to clean the worst mud off and put rugs back on. (In fact special girl and old girl have light weight rugs on, so they won't be as dirty but will be dripping with sweat.)

tomterm8

I went to a 'good' comprehensive school, my sister went to a private school, other members of my family went to grammar and even one to a stage school... I really have come to the conclusion that these 'classes' of schools don't make a huge difference.

What makes a difference is the individual teachers, and the parents.

If you go to a 'good' school, but get a English teacher that doesn't click with you, the chances are you will be bad at English.

lostinrates

tomterm8 wrote: »

I went to a 'good' comprehensive school, my sister went to a private school, other members of my family went to grammar and even one to a stage school... I really have come to the conclusion that these 'classes' of schools don't make a huge difference.

What makes a difference is the individual teachers, and the parents.

yes, I think this is pretty much true.

My school experience was a bit more ''bespoke'' which is something I'd want to offer a child though...but whereever they go I think parents are the lynch pin...the teachers can be brilliant, the school results awesome, but if the parents do nbot instil the importnace, the routine and the requirement to work at home it can all mean nothing. And vice versa.

I am astounded by DH's dedication to study. To see him revise for exams is to watch someone who has been trained from a very young age to self motivate and to apply himself. I never revised much, much to my great shame, but I did like writing essays and researching. I liked learning new stuff. my parents did not instill the same routine of study outside school mandatory study time because I was doing other stuff then. Not surpising given the difference in dh's parents careers and interests and my parents'.