ICS Learning issue

charmed-imsure

Hi, I hope someone can help with this.
My husband recently purchased a distant learning course with ICS, everything is online. The course is on computer game design but the information provided about the course wasn't very indepth. When he eventually received the course by email, he opened the link and saw that the course was not what he expected at all, and so requested to change to 2 different courses which involved a partial refund. The terms and conditions do state a 10 day money back guarantee. All this happened within just 3 days.

ICS are refusing to change his course or issue any refund because he "opened the link" in the email! But you can't find out what the course involves unless you do and it does not state that by opening a link, it would void his (IMO) Consumer Rights.

ICS refuse to give refund because they are unable to get a refund themselves because it's a third party course (which he was not made aware of at the time of purchase - and this course btw was almost £2000 and he paid upfront, the lot).

I argue that because he purchased the course from ICS, not the 3rd party, then it is down to ICS who need to resolve this, not the 3rd party.

Where does he stand in getting a refund? I understand distant selling laws but they refuse to accept them. We need help because £2000 is a lot of money to waste. The course simply isn't what ICS explained it to be so IMO there was some misleading info there. He actually just wants to switch to another 2 courses more suitable! And as they refuse that, he will then request full refund which will also be refused.

If you need any more info let me know. I'm just needing to figure out where we stand as in: Who exactly would the 'contract' be with considering it was ICS who took our money. And how do we stand with Consumer Rights on a refund since he can't actually start the course or continue with it anyway!

charmed-imsure

bump for an answer

PZH

charmed-imsure wrote: »

The terms and conditions do state a 10 day money back guarantee.

They also state:-

2.5 The Customer will not have the right to cancel this Agreement under Condition 3.1 if any Software is returned by the Customer with the security seal broken or if any Materials that are provided online have been accessed by the Customer.

And this is in line with the DSR's as far as I am aware

charmed-imsure wrote: »

But you can't find out what the course involves unless you do....

Did you try to contact ICS and request a more in depth breakdown of the course ?

charmed-imsure wrote: »

...and it does not state that by opening a link, it would void his (IMO) Consumer Rights.

See above

charmed-imsure wrote: »

I argue that because he purchased the course from ICS, not the 3rd party, then it is down to ICS who need to resolve this, not the 3rd party.

You are correct - Unless they purely act as agents (Which does not appear to be the case)

charmed-imsure wrote: »

Where does he stand in getting a refund? I understand distant selling laws but they refuse to accept them.

We need help because £2000 is a lot of money to waste. The course simply isn't what ICS explained it to be so IMO there was some misleading info there.

DSR are very specific when it comes to services and your acceptance of the service if you access it.

However, it may be more relevant under SOGA and "Not as Described" assuming that you can prove this.

charmed-imsure wrote: »

And how do we stand with Consumer Rights on a refund since he can't actually start the course or continue with it anyway!

Why can't he start the course or continue with it ?

charmed-imsure

Thanks for the response

In the DSR's, it clearly states that the consumer has a cooling off period of 7 days. This course was paid for in full up front via PayPal, which is instant payment, ICS terms state that as soon as the payment is cleared you can start the course, however, it took a further 6 days to get the link through, we were given all sorts of excuses. There is an overview of the course on the ICS website, but when you open the course, it really is not what is described. They keep saying we need to check with Gatlin, but I keep arguing that my contract is with them. Now I have only accessed the first lesson in the course, and there are 10 in total, after reading the first lesson, I decided it was not for me, as it is not explained in a user friendly way. You need a level of computer programming to be able to understand what they are talking about, as things are not explained, and you are expected to know what they are talking about. Now I have not asked for a refund, simply to transfer the course to a different one, plus a refund of about £400 for the difference in price. I have told them that the course is not as described, but still the same answer, ICS need to speak to Gatlin, however, they have now admitted that they sell the course through Gatlin, so that is an admittance that they have sold me the course. I have asked for the email address for the CEO, and if need be I will take legal action.

PZH

charmed-imsure wrote: »

In the DSR's, it clearly states that the consumer has a cooling off period of 7 days.

Yes it does. But, this is a service and as such the rules are slightly different.

If you access the service or the service starts before the 7 days has elapsed, then you are deemed to have accepted the service and this voids the 7 days.

charmed-imsure wrote: »

I have told them that the course is not as described, but still the same answer, ICS need to speak to Gatlin

This, I imagine, will be your only recourse - Not as Described.

And unless they are simply acting as agents to Gatlin, then your contract is with ICS


What is the Course title ? I assume it is the Video Game Design & Development ?

charmed-imsure

My point is that until you access the service, then you dont really know what it involves. I have only accessed the 1 lesson out of 10, and since I requested a transfer, I have not even been on their site. The course is Video Game and Design. The first lesson goes into pathfinding, and talks about how to do it, but totally confuses you as it showing you computer language, but does not explain what the characters mean, which is one of my arguments, as it does not say you need to have any level of programming language. The course is not as described, ans was not delivered on time either. I also keep trying to explain, that my contract is with ICS and not Gatlin

PZH

charmed-imsure wrote: »

My point is that until you access the service, then you dont really know what it involves. I have only accessed the 1 lesson out of 10, and since I requested a transfer, I have not even been on their site.

I understand your point - BUT you have accessed the course and DSR's no longer apply.

However, you may have recourse under SOGA - but you will need to establish that it was not as described.

If it is the same course as I am looking at then it does state:-

Pre-requisites
You should have a reasonable familiarity with computers and at least a pass at GCSE level mathematics (or equivalent). No previous programming experience is required.

And if you are saying that you do need programming experience then clearly this is wrong.

However, you do need to establish if the First lesson goes into more detail and explanations in future lessons.

charmed-imsure

Here is an example that they give you in lesson 1, and at no time does it state what the characters do, so you do need a level of computer programming to understand what they are talking about

typedef std::vector<std::string> stringvec;
class MapGridWalker
{
public:
typedef enum WALKSTATE {
STILLLOOKING,
REACHEDGOAL,
UNABLETOREACHGOAL } WALKSTATETYPE;
20
MapGridWalker();
MapGridWalker(MapGrid* grid) { m_grid = grid; }
virtual ~MapGridWalker();
virtual void drawState(CDC* dc, CRect gridBounds) = 0;
virtual WALKSTATETYPE iterate() = 0;
virtual void reset() = 0;
virtual bool weightedGraphSupported() { return false; };
virtual bool heuristicsSupported() { return false; }
virtual stringvec heuristicTypesSupported()
{ stringvec empty; return empty; }
virtual std::string getClassDescription() = 0;
void setMapGrid(MapGrid *grid) { m_grid = grid; }
MapGrid *getMapGrid() { return m_grid; }
protected:
MapGrid *m_grid;
};

It odes break it down, but again no explanation of what the characters do

spadge_2356

I'm sorry to hear your having so much trouble with ICS. I did a BTEC in electronic engineering which I finished this year, which I completed with no previous experience in electronics.

Distance learning is difficult, sometimes the materials they give don't fully explain what you need to know. Even though some of the course wasn't explained in as much detail as I would of liked, I had a tutor assigned to my course who was only a phone call/email away and would get a guaranteed response from within 48 hours, and student forum (which I didn't find that helpful TBH but was there anyway).

Maybe your tutor can help tell you what the characters mean?

charmed-imsure

Thanks

But my point is, you need to know what they mean to even start the course, so you do need a certain level of programming knowledge. I can search on the internet to find out, but I should not have to

spadge_2356

charmed-imsure wrote: »

Thanks

But my point is, you need to know what they mean to even start the course, so you do need a certain level of programming knowledge. I can search on the internet to find out, but I should not have to

I do take your point and I agree, however the point I was making is that from my experience with ICS the materials don't always go into explicit detail and it can be difficult to learn this way.

In any case your options seem rather limited. I would suggest calling 0800 195 8915, ask for student services and submit the question to your tutor. It may be the case that the code is very straight forward to understand but the study materials are inadequate.

The only other thing I could suggest is that you may have chargeback rights through visa/mastercard to have the transaction refunded if you made the purchase on your credit card. In which case you would call your card issuer and ask to raise a case with their disputes department to claim the "goods" as not as described.